Simplistic, like I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight
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Simplistic, like I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vbNH_58qXI...roll+spray.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
simplistic to you maybe but true nonetheless
'They' by which I presume you mean governments did indeed bow to public pressure to increase rights which goes counter to your initial claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
While I am against the reduction of human rights that happened in mnay countries as a response to 9/11 etc etc it would be very unfair to ignore that there was considerable pressure both from the public and media to do something concrete to reduce the chances of further attacks. Therefore whether increasing or decreasing human rights, in the examples you have chosen governments have to some degree tried to reflect public opinion.
Er... no. But don't let that trouble you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight
And not, I hasten to add, public opinion from the left of the political spectrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
So you think Shipman, Brady & West were not bad people? Only a bed wetting Liberal could think they were anything other than bad people.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I think they were extremely ill people who committed appalling crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight
Prove it!
They were not ill they were just bad.
Wrong. Rights and liberties are something the humankind was born with before any government existed. People choose voluntarily to restrain their liberties by imposing law on themselves and electing the government to guard the law with the purpose of achieving order, safety and security. Government is, therefore, is not a source of liberties and rights by any means. It is sort of a banker of human liberties and rights, who vows to keep those safe and give that deposit back to people when they request it. Alas, like many banks governments do not stick to their end of the deal and choose to screw clients.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
I was under the belief that your post I quoted was talking about the Eastern Bloc after the fall of Communism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
If you were intending it to be a general statement you should have made that clearer.
You are also wrong about rights and liberties. Whilst humankind may have had notions of freedom and rights, the modern concept of human rights and personal freedoms that you are referring to are a representation of a contract between the state and the individual, whether the state is represented by a single person like a king or whether its an entire organisation like a modern government.
The unwritten contract is this. You pay tax and obey laws. Time to time you may have to surrender your time in service to the state through conscription and make other sacrifices. In return you get certain rights and liberties recognised and receive services such as education, personal security, social security etc etc.
If you are writing a thesis on this subject then I'm sure you know this already.
I wrote my last thesis about a decade ago and that was that. I haven't started this discussion with developing the language for a thesis in mind. ;)
I see where you are coming from. You argue that I get the recognition of my rights and liberties in return for paying my dues. I.e. I'm a contractor and government rewards me for something (loyalty, taxes, military service, etc.). In my view I initiate the contract and purchase government's services. If I do not like the quality I may send the contractor to where the sun never shines and find somebody else to do the job. That's the fundamental difference between our views.
Ill people can be cured, evil people cannot. Bad people must be ill or it would destroy the leftist ideal of creating the perfect society by shaping people to their ideal. Bad people cannot be shaped to an ideal but ill people can be cured of their imperfections.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight
If you don't like the quality and happen to live in a democracy then the population as a whole can make a small difference by voting someone else in more in tune with what people want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
If you want a greater change then obviously revolution is in the air...
You seem — perhaps conveniently, in the name of your argument — to forget that ill people cannot always be cured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lousada
Ill people cannot always be cured. In terms of psychiatric problems and personality disorders MOST people cannot be cured, and people with these problems form the bulk of mass-murderers etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lousada
Trying to understand how and why people commit these crimes is essential if any attempt is to be made to identify them before the crimes are commited. Seeking the root cause helps do this.
Simply labelling them as 'bad' might be easy for people to understand but does nothing to help solve the problem.
Just don't let that tumor grow too large. Then you won't need a revolution to wipe it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
Following on from Rollo's post, who admirably tried to keep at least one thread on subject, Government is just a reflection of it's people.
Is it Evil? As Evil as society in general. You will find some great people doing their very best in Government just as you will find people motivated by greed and avarice and just as you will find those traits throughout society.
You can tinker and tailor it but ultimately Government is made up of little bits of all of us.
A most excellent post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Spot on. That is the basic philisopical view on governments that was used by the Founders of the US. I honestly don't know much about other governments so I will not speak to them. But here in the US that is the exact guiding principal used when the Constitution was written. If you study the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, they are not granting any rights to anyone. Those two documents are restraints on the Federal Government, a charter of negative liberties on the Federal Government, a limit to what they can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
Now we all know that the US has not been, nor are we currently perfect. However, I believe that the idea that we are endowed by our Creator with the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happyness (or my prefered phrasing from the Virginia declaration of Rights, property) is true and that governments are simply mechanisims to prevent your L, L, PoH from infringing upon my L, L, PoH. Simply because we have not executed this ideal perfectly does not mean it is not true, nor that we should not continue to strive towards it.
Still waiting for Bumdell to back up his post that they were sick rather than bad.
I don't know why I bother to dignify you with a response, but if you read back a few posts you will find that another member did so for me. In Malbec's words, 'In terms of psychiatric problems and personality disorders MOST people cannot be cured, and people with these problems form the bulk of mass-murderers etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight
Trying to understand how and why people commit these crimes is essential if any attempt is to be made to identify them before the crimes are commited. Seeking the root cause helps do this.
Simply labelling them as 'bad' might be easy for people to understand but does nothing to help solve the problem.'
That sums up my view perfectly.
As a bed wetting Liberal I'd expect you to think that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Guess you'd want them all released as soon as they have hoodwinked some bed wetting Liberal prison shrink too?
They can not be described as sick as that is just folk being too scared to address the problem that some sections of society are just bad.
Oh and committed has two Ts, state educated were you?
No that makes the people who allowed that government to exist to be evil, or incredibly stupid and ignorant.
NO but that makes the people who allowed that government to be in power to be either evil, or gullible to the point of being self-centered morons.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
A car is an inanimate object, the analogy is silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
That ranks with the old " cars are licensed, so guns should be."
The difficulty of obtaining or using either is controlled by governments, first, not the other way around.
Their actions define their description; although, how they are judged, depends on the moral standards of those doing the judging.
NO-- except, the media proclaims what suits THERE agenda or bias. The media is not the people or related to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
Then when about the point of good or bad they are bad. How bad they are, often justifies whether or not evil is a good term to describe it.
But there is, I would argue, a very large extent to which public opinion is shaped by the media, thus inextricably interlinking the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
WRONG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
No such thing existed.
Some government use that false standard to give man rights, which works out well for societies at times, but no such thing exists.
finwicks girlfreid sian lishman is a bitch
There may be a whole range of other reasons beyond those you mention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
She eats poo
Shut the **** up bitchQuote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Sadly true minus the inextricalby, as shown by priinting presses ending up in rivers, when the "press" said things certain societies found offending.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Chopping is a bender
chopping is a gay boy he likes boys bums
Petter solberg wrc thread
Thankfully not in civilised societies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
People may claim their opinions are not influenced by the media, but they are. The problem is that some influences are positive and others negative. I know my views, for example, are influenced by reading stories of official wrongdoing in Private Eye.
What???? If man wasn't born with rights, and the government didn't give them to them. Then where do rights come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe