But what about Reid being penalised for tapping and passing Rydell in 1998 at Brands Hatch. Tim Harvey would have called that move 'a classic Matt Neal maneuver'.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndySpeed
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But what about Reid being penalised for tapping and passing Rydell in 1998 at Brands Hatch. Tim Harvey would have called that move 'a classic Matt Neal maneuver'.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndySpeed
An example that goes to show how attitudes have changed in the intervening years when it comes to the lesser contact. I am sure what Thompson did to Plato in '99 would be deemed just as unacceptable today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Isolated incidents from the 90's fair enough - but Thompson and Reid were both punished. As Jon Brown says, thesedays the Reid incident is "classic move" usually a Team Dynamics Honda. In my view it is not racing. Contact will always happen and IS part of touring cars. But not a "shove up the back" - that is cynical and cowardly tactic which for some reason doesn't get punished. Side by side banging is part and parcel and is what we want to see.
Are Chevrolet complaining about the turbo cars in WTCC? Of course they're not because they're one of the only teams using the Turbo engine and they're kicking arse! Don't hear them complaining about 'Equivalencey' or 'Parity' over there!
Every serious entry in the WTCC is using Turbo engines. In the WTCC it was not said that the two different types of engine would be equivalent. In the BTCC it was. I am truly stunned as to how complicated an idea this is for people to get their heads round. I seem to have vastly over-rated the average intelligence of most people if this is anything to go by.
TOCA said NGTC & S2000 engines would be EQUIVALENT until 2013. That means, for those who don't understand big words, that there should be no advantage to running a turbo performance wise, only in cost savings. It also means that the top non-turbo teams should be very competitive with the turbo teams (which is clearly not the case).
Sorry, should have been a bit more clear, "Using the new 1.6T petrol engine" as a pose to the old TDi, or would you say the 6-car Sunred outfit aren't a serious entry?
and at risk of repeating myself...
The Chevys look pretty competitive to me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce-1980
Only Tarquini would have a place in a "works" SEAT entry, and 3 meetings in he's got the turbo engine! Because as you saw at the first couple of meetings, they couldn't compete. The likes of Dudukalo, Barth, Nykjaer & Oriola are journeymen at WTCC level.
Tell me, how many times has a non-turbo car overtaken a turbo car without one of them having a problem? And then tell me how many times a turbo has gone by a non-turbo?
To be fair to Bruce nine cars in the last round at Monza were using either a non-turbo or the old 2 litre turbodiesel.
Also, Nykjær is doing pretty well and to call him a journeyman is a bit unfair given the experience he's building now. He's a strong racer and didn't he win the European Touring Car Cup a couple of times?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
The ETC Cup hasn't exactly been the strongest of fields of late. Experience =/= Talent.
WTCC Qualifying Monza
1 Turbo Petrol
2 Turbo Petrol
3 Turbo Petrol
4 Turbo Petrol
5 Turbo Diesel
6 Turbo Petrol
7 Turbo Petrol
8 Turbo Petrol
9 Turbo Petrol
10 Turbo Diesel
The best non-turbo was the FACTORY Volvo team down in 16th with an NA Petrol! Over a second off the pace.
Nykaer's a decent driver. He was Danish Champion as well in recent times, so he must be a handy driver to beat the likes of Jason Watt and Jan Magnussen.
Out of those drivers Alfa Fan mentioned, I'd say only Dudakolo is a journeyman. The rest are younger drivers who have all graduated from various Seat Leon series, as did Norbert Michelisz. Just goes to show the difference between the UK and other countries, which are willing to support young drivers on the way up.
As I said, Chevy are kicking arse in the WTCC because they have (up to now, had) a superior engine! Thank you for making my point for me! Still, didn't stop Tarquini getting his head down and winning a race at Zolder (Like the quality driver he is) rather than whinging about the other cars, did it!
Anyway, back to the original point.... Do you honestly think the BTCC turbos still have an advantage over the NA cars after watching Thruxton? (Assuming you did actually watch Thruxton...)
Yes of course they do. How anyone can think they don't is beyond me? Show me one example of a turbo car being passed by a NA car on merit?
When I said "Assuming you watched Thruxton" I was only kidding but obviously you didn't!
Correct me if i'm wrong (Which I'm sure you will) but didn't Plato start from the back in race two and finish 8th? Passing 9 cars (5 of which were Turbos) on the way!?
Ok. So he got past Tony Gilham, Jeff Smith & Tom Boardman. Those are the only three turbo cars he passed after the first lap. 2 Vectras with 2 pretty erratic drivers and Boardman's SEAT, a car which has often had problems at Thruxton.
You only have to compare the results to when Plato has started at the back in previous seasons. It seems like this is your first season of BTCC? That's the only assumption that makes your posts make sense. Did you happen to look at the speed traps? I doubt it. To help inform you:
Ford Focus Turbo Sector 1 133mph Finish Line 103mph
Honda Civic Turbo Sector 1 133mph Finish Line 103mph
Vauxhall Vectra Turbo Sector 1 132mph Finish Line 102mph
Chevrolet Cruze NA Sector 1 129mph Finish Line 100mph
Those figures are averaged across all the cars of that type, removing any outliers. But all the drivers in the same cars are pretty close on speed trap figures. So consistently 3mph down on the Turbos.
I actually picked the race the non-turbos were closest to the turbos in so as to not be accused of exaggerating the case. If you look at the other 2 races the differential is more like 5mph! Pretty significant margins.
It's amazing what actually look at the data and the facts does. Instead of just jumping to conclusions because of your dislike of certain drivers, you can back up your points. I'm no particular fan of Jason's, but any fool can see from the data that the equivalence promised has not been delivered yet.
Just out of interest, did you think there was an equivalency problem at Donington? Where the turbos were consistently 5mph quicker through every speed trap?
P.S. Just for comparison, the Chevy was the fastest through the speed traps at Thruxton last year, and by a reasonable margin (faster than the LPG nitro button Fords (although it was early in the season, if Thruxton had been a latter round I think it might have been a different outcome).
You asked me to give you an example of an NA car passing a Turbo, you never said it had to be a front running podium contender (did you mention Tom Boardman)
And, at risk of repeating myself yet again... (wish you'd read the whole thread before making a dick of yourself)
So yes, I did look at the speed trap data and i'm aware Plato was a little down on top speed yet, despite that, set the fastest racing lap of the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce-1980
And as for your attempt at patronisation, I've been to EVERY BTCC meeting at Oulton park since 1996... pretty much every Donnington meeting... Croft... Silverstone... Rockingham.... Even knockhill a couple of times, so recon I've got enough BTCC nouse to see you off matey! ;)
Seems to me you have a little too much man-love for Plato! Accept the fact, he aint got the best car this season so if he wants it, he's gona have to work a bit harder than he did last season!
I don't even particularly like Plato! Anyone who has been around here for more than 13 posts can see that. And btw, continuing with the personal attacks means your stay around here won't last long! For the record you were wrong about your BTCC nous too. Just to let you know.
Do you think the Vauxhall Vectra, Ford Focus and Honda Civic would be leaving Chevrolet for dust in the WTCC running the 1.6 turbos? I'm genuinely curious as to whether you believe this would be the case.
Hahaha! Woahhh! Chill out kiddo! Only a bit of banter! Thats what these forums are for aint it!
I recon if Honda entered the WTCC with a 1.6T in a couple of weeks they'd probably be a bit behind until they caught up with the development but as you know, being an avid BTCC Fan, Dynamics, Arena and 888 are a top notch teams and will always be there or there abouts!
Now if you're gona cry every time I disagree with you, you're probably best off ignoring this reply! :bigcry:
Perhaps Alan Gow might consider running a championship within a championship like they did in the days of the "Production" class (where we first met Tom Boardman), how stupid was that then compared to the silly bickering that we are getting now. If the drivers don't like it they could all join the turbo cars or get out their pipe and slippers and watch it on the telly.
No crying here. Your diverting attention because I comprehensively demolished your arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce-1980
As I said before, let's wait for Oulton Park. Thruxton is a track which is normally to benefit turbos and it has enormous straights. And yes, the turbos had an advantage, but IMO not as big as in Donington Park.
Alfa Fan, you haven't addressed a single point i've made, never mind comprehensively demolishing my arguments! (Points, not arguments. Children argue.)
I'll spell it out for you...
(All points refer to Thruxton as the boost restrictions had been applied.)
Please bear in mind, Thruxton is the fastest track on the calendar.
The turbo cars should have a small speed advantage here to compensate for the disadvantages they will face at other, tighter circuits.
Plato qualified 2 places behind Neal - Not a huge way down the field.
Plato binned it in race 1 but before he did he was 0.063 secs off the over all fastest lap of race 1.
Plato started from the back in race 2 and finished 8th, 0.166 seconds off fastest lap which was set by his team mate (who doesn't have a turbo).
On his way up the field he passed:
Tom Boardman (S2000 Turbo),
Tony Gilham (S2000 Turbo),
Paul O'Neill (S2000),
Jeff Smith (S2000 Turbo),
Andy Neate (S2000 Turbo),
Robert Collard (S2000),
John George (S2000),
Nick Foster (S2000)
Liam Griffin (S2000 Turbo)
Plato won race 3... and set fastest lap... by 0.376 seconds!
Plato was 2.2mph down (3 race average from the fastest speed trap in the country)
And you still think he's at a disadvantage!?
Were you watching BTCC last time Alan Gow was in charge? If you were, you will know he's the best man for the job! He's firm but fair, he wont take **** from anyone (Including Plato) and his main objective is to keep the racing close! Close racing make the BTCC what it is, why would anyone want one team to have an unfair advantage over anyone else? Maintaining parity between two very different types of car is an almost impossible task and Alan appears to have pretty much nailed it after only 2 meetings! I'd say he's done a good job! But as F1Boat says, lets wait for Oulton.
My prediction is, if anyones gona have an advantage at Oulton, it's gona be Plato!
OMG why are we hearing cries of 3mph down on the straights!! blah blah blah!!! A race is more than top speed!! To have the FASTEST lap of the race on a FAST circuit whilst being slightly down on top speed MUST mean your car is faster elsewhere! DOH its not rocket science!
Plato couldn't be caught in race 3, he was faster. full stop.
His qualifying this season is exactly on par with the last 2 seasons, if anything he is closer to pole this year then previous years.
The fastest tracks are now out of the way and considering how quick his lap times were at these circuits (remember his top speed is down so his cornering speeds must be higher) he will be in a much stronger position at the next rounds. Well assuming he doesnt drive the car faster than it will go.....
Well at least if I'm wrong it backs up my old hypothesis that Rob Collard is a truly terrible driver!
You having a laugh?? Ive had nothing but respect for the bloke this year, hes been driving the wheels off of his beemer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
Must admit, I've always liked Collard!
Looks like we not gona agree on anything does it mate! ;)
Please read what I said carefully. Rather than jumping to conclusions. I know there's lots of complicated words in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg22
No need to be a t*at about it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
Haha! Torg, meet Alfa! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg22
Bruce. Alfa. Let's just agree you're both idiots and I'm right. V8s for everyone! :D