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We want both. Problem is, it is difficult for even a fast car to stay close behind a slower one through corners etc cause of the aero setups. I prefer dogfights ala Massa/Button at OZ, but they don't happen often enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Well, it would demand a high level of concentration to use it all the time all the way through the race and sometimes they would make mistake. But as it currently is, I would prefer to see NO overtaking at all, instead of this crap rule. This fascination with overtaking is such nonsense anyway. You want overtaking, go watch nascrap with their 15062 overtaking moves every lap, if you want overtaking so badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Go watch WWF if you want entertainment so badly. There have always been races where position dont change much and there is no overtaking, never has it been a problem. Now people are so superficial and casual fans need their entertainment so that real racing and real racing fans have stopped taking preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateDanGTR
I like to consider myself a 'real racing fan' (been watching motorsport for as long as I can remember) and I want to see overtaking and dogfights. Perhaps this is because I was raised on a diet of single make series and the BTCC, but I can't see why wanting it in F1 makes me less of a racing fan. F1 is a victim of it's own advances, the way that technology in the sport has developed means that it's too difficult to pass a car, even if it's slower than you. In some cases this can be interesting, but for the most part it's dull. Even as a hardened motorsport fan I find myself wondering why I bother sitting down to 2 hours of fairly boring 'action' 19 times a year, and I still can't work out why I made the effort to get up early for Oz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
That said, I don't necessarily think DRS is the best way to sort things out. When I was at testing the other week there was one thing that stood out, the braking distance of the cars. Even at the end of the straight at Catalunya Massa was braking crazy late, as in later than I would doing about 80mph in my road car (even though he's probably topping 200 there). Part of this is because he's braver than I am, but most is down to cars. If rules limit brake developments to increase braking distances then we'll actually get to see drivers awarded for being brave and braking later than their rivals, at the minute this isn't really possible. IMO this isn't as bad as DRS in trying to create racing, because it just gives back the chance for the driver to demonstrate his skill a bit more.
To Gary Walker: if you are not watching F1 to be entertained what are you watching it for?
I don't say this to troll, it's an honest question.
I think we all watch for entertainment of some sort. When I'm at the venue I don't need overtaking in shed loads - the smells, the sounds, the race craft are more than enough. But on TV, those things are muted, dulled. Watching a 90minutes procession is certainly no fun from my POV.
Which would win a paint drying contest? B&Q own brand or Dulux?
Colin Chapman came up with adjustable rear wings on the 49 but they were banned more because of how wings were attached to the car. The tall, thin struts could never support the loads and this led to huge shunts that inflicted Graham Hill and Jochen Rindt in 1968.
So long as you don't buy Crown, I don't care. Crown is the worst paint I've ever used....... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Wilkinsons own brand is good!
Amen brother!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Fully agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
F1 has become a show dominated by stupid gimmicks for the casual viewer who understands bugger all about motorsport.
I wonder how frustrated would some of the F1 engineers of past years in today's circus.
Is that permited? When passing a backmarker a driver is obviously not 1 second behind :mark: .Quote:
Originally Posted by fandango
In the last 10-15 years, F1 has really 'sold out' and become corporate - which has attracted millions of 'casual viewers' - who don't care for the history and traditions of the sport. All they want is action, drama, overtaking, crashes....We can't go back....sadly....Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
You want 'proper' Motor Racing, with varied cars, engines, designs, etc Then F1 isn't for you anymore.
But I want action, drama and overtaking! It is precisely these three attributes that got me interested in F1 in my childhood during the 1980s. Surely I'm not unusual, or an example of the sort of person whose interest has resulted in the sport having 'sold out'?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Some people don't like team orders but I guess they know bugger all about motorsport.
There are people who followed F1 because of Gilles, Senna, Mansell, et al.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Computer game programming legend Geoff Crammond got back into F1 because of Hamilton
http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/...h-pat-symonds/Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
You could use that argument for other forms of motorsport.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
I agree, brakes are a big issue. I support every development that makes it harder for drivers and demands skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by barryfullalove
I dont think I expressed myself correctly. I see F1 going down the road of entertainment in the style of WWF, with stupid gimmicks. Of course, I want to be entertained, but I mostly watch it because I have been a racing fan since before I started going to school and I enjoy seeing cars on their limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
All such nonsense as KERS, DRS, two types of tyres you have to use every race, artificial rain, "the glamour" - those hold no interest for me.
Just the point I was trying to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
It's been said a million billion times already but what's really needed is to get rid of the aero completely, you can still have wings if you don't want to spoil the 'look' of the cars, but make them standard and completely ineffective at generating downforce.
If you have zero aero downforce you won't be disadvantaged following the car in front and thus overtaking becomes much easier.
Hmmmm, sounds like a gimmickQuote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg-qm...mbedded#at=114
I couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by barryfullalove
We come again to this question of whether going back on technology is necessary or desirable. Many would argue that an F1 car should be the quickest thing to go round any track used by F1 cars. This isn't necessarily a view that I subscribe to, but plenty do.
I do think F1 should be the fastest series, however you don't need high technology to achieve that. Whack in a massively powerful engine and away you go!
I certainly enjoy F1 much less than in the 90's, and I can only dream about the show (not the gimmicks) being even close to what ALMS or LMS are showing nowadays!Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Wrong. Take a look at endurance racing (ALMS, LMS) the rules as limiting as they are still allow for sensibly different cars to be fielded and be competitive. Nothing like that in F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Do you know how the ACO set their rules?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
They use air restrictors to create false competition via set lap times round Le Sarthe.
I've never cared for equalisation formulae. It's so false like the governing body has decided if you are going to win this time. IMO either everyone should compete to the same regs or not at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Similar to NASCAR, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
It's the same for everyone = fair racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
What we get in F1 is a gimmick that gives the car behind an advantage to overtake the car in front.
I guess you can spot the difference.
I am also looking forward to the day when F1 will allow for different engine types and configs! :rolleyes:
Turns out the DRS must be a great idea cos nikki lauda has come out and said it's rubbish
It seems that DRS is working too well in Malaysia. Every time a car with a working DRS system got behind another one on the main straight, overtaking it became extremely easy.
So DRS wasn't that bad after all. They just need to find a proper way to place the DRS zone.
It's growing on me. Most of the passing still had to be done by the driver, it just got them a little closer to the car in front to try it - much like a slipstream used to.
Reliability remains a concern though, as does the apparent difference in the effect it has on everyone's cars. Renault, for example were just ballistic with DRS engaged, whereas for other teams it seem to do little/nothing.
A big factor today was circuit design: a long enough straight to give DRS a chance to work, followed by a sequence of corners which means the overtaker still has to do a lot of work, and the overtakee has a fighting chance of regaining the place rather than it becoming a fait accompli.
Agreed. It seems to cancel out to some extent the whole turbulence thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave B
Still crap. Overtaking has become worthless.
Alonso vs Hamilton without DRS was a highly enjoyable battle, that's what racing look likes, in case some do not know.
Was that a bit of praise for Hermann Tilke? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave B
Only because Hamilton had issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Some of the difference in effect may have been down to gearing, some teams may have gone for a long top gear if they anticipated being in a lot of traffic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
You've also got to give Pirelli a fair bit of credit. Their tyres permit a number of strategies, meaning we saw old booted cars mixing with fresh rubbered ones, leading to some very tasty passes lasting three or more corners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave B
So what? It's racing with issues or not.
Since when makes an undeserved advantage attributed by the governing body based on need for show part of racing?
Honestly the tires' performance was all over the place, no credit deserved by anyone for that.
It did cross my mind. The renaults were the only ones playing pin ball on the rev limit in Q, but that could have been wind direction or any number of other factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyL