When one considers that Libya has something like the world's eighth largest oil reserves, and then sees for oneself the state of the country, I think your assumption about the regime's finances is probably accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Printable View
When one considers that Libya has something like the world's eighth largest oil reserves, and then sees for oneself the state of the country, I think your assumption about the regime's finances is probably accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
I was only emphasizing the potential! We could do just as much damage with Fighter/Bombers, and I am certainly not advocating hostilities right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
There is still time for diplomacy. We live in an information age that facilitates ideas like the committing of your citizens lives into war is moving too slowly. I feel for the Libyan rebels. But they should have known the risk of possibly having to go it alone. I think at this point it's a tough call. A cease fire would be one option, but that would not guaranty the safety of the loyalists, (which there may be more of than many of us are being lead to believe, even if they are being loyal to a madman. They may replace him with another younger madman) or the rebels.
This whole shooting match stinks of what could degrade into the aftermath of deposing Saddam Husain
I just think this is VERY ironic that many of the people practically begging the US to get involved are some of the same people that ripped them for going to Iraq and Afghanistan.
I read in the paper that one of the freedom fighters was mad the Americans haven't helped them already. Well, considering how well Iraqi's treated the Americans for liberating them (some, not all approved); and how well Arab's seem to switch sides, I can honestly say staying out of this thing is the best for the West.
I heard on the news on the way home from work that the Arab League wants a no fly zone. Well here is a clue Arab League. All those fighters you would use without thought on the Israeli's if you had the stones and the ability could go over to Libya and settle Gaddafi's hash. You don't NEED the USA, UK, France, Germany, Canada or Italy to do this.
It is sad that one part of the world provides us with 95% of the world's headaches. It isn't that I want to dislike Libyans, Arabs or Muslims, but the one common factor is they all seem to change sides in every conflict and they often want others to do messy things for them. Just my opinion, but over history, the stories of the Berbers, the Barbary Coast pirates and the like in this part of the world really haven't changed, just the weapons have. Yes, they want freedom from Gaddafi. All power to em...but keep me out of it.
The Arab League is a joke, and justice in the Middle East is a joke, and it will be after Gaddafi and his inbred sons are gone too.
Lets just stay out of this one....it is about time the Arab world quit bitching and making excuses and cleaned up one of their own messes for a change....
That's all very well, but what I find a little unbelievable about your tone is the fact that you seem to absolve the invading Coalition forces of all blame for the failures in Afghanistan and Iraq, and — a rather more minor point, but one that still irritated me somewhat — the Israelis of all blame for their role in any potential conflict with any other Middle Eastern nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
True. People are talking about a no-fly zone over Libya, but no one talks about a no-fly zone over Gaza, West Bank and Lebanon when the Israeli air force is pounding the Palestinians and the Lebanese.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Coalition forces should be blamed for what in Afghanistan?Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
That is because most nations believe the Isralis should be pounding these murdering fuchsQuote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Let them deal with it themselves, or let the nations of whiners deal with it for a change. The US will be the bad guy no matter what we do, so for a change we should do for the US and let the others deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
As a side note, US Marine officers still carry a sword that is tradition started in Tripoli, where the US flag was raised for the first time on foreign soil after a military victory. All it took was a hand full of Marines. Maybe if all of the EU gets involved they can handle it themselves. :)
I don't absolve them of blame. I just think that going to Libya will put them in yet another situation where they get blamed for whatever happens, whether it is their fault or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
AS for this crap about Israel, the last I looked, they were not attacking anyone. If the Arab world was as worried about Muslims and Pakistan was as worried about Muslims and everyone was as worried about the Palestinians as you and Eki are, then I would buy your arguments. The fact is, the people who kill, maim, torture and mistreat Palestinians, Muslims and any other minority in the Middle East are the same people. Pakistan is a failed state with nuclear weapons and a bunch of radical tribes fighting for power. The Palestinians are treated as badly if not worse in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria by those governments at times, as any Muslim living with an Israeli passport.
Sorry, I refuse to buy into this notion that Israel is the problem in the middle east. If they were nuked happily by the Iranians (I didn't even start to point the finger at them for half the crap that is started in this part of the world, but they are guilty too) tomorrow, this wouldn't bring any peace at all. Because now the Palenstians would demand someone give them what they need to live, because for 60 years, they have been getting aid from anyone willing to give them money, and most of it ended up in Swiss Bank accounts owned by their late great leader. That however isnt' the point of this thread....
This mess in Libya is yet another case of a failed state coming apart, and it is of course, All the West's fault or conversely, all the West's problem if they don't fix it.
There is no good that can come of the NATO nations putting a no fly zone on this country. There was a no fly over Iraq for Hussein but it didn't stop him killing 20000 people a year.
No fly zone over Israel...you guys make me laugh. The Israeli's don't need their airforce to make life miserable for the Palestinians. The Palestinians do most of it to themselves....
If the Arab League wants a "No Fly Zone" over Libya, fine, let them put one there. They have aircraft, cash and pilots. Get 'er done, son.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think military action is desirable either and tend to think that the best option is to stay out while taking steps to try and 'assist' Gaddafi's downfall, but I don't think that foreign policy can be determined on whether those prosecuting it are 'blamed' afterwards for any failings. The way to avoid blame is to make one's foreign policy ventures successful. Easier said than done, of course, but surely the correct ambition if countries are to have foreign policies and carry them out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
The only point of view I will ever accept regarding the Israel/Palestine situation — and I agree this is going off topic, but you brought it up — is that which states that both sides are equally appalling to each other. Those who fall hook, line and sinker for either the Israeli or Palestinian propaganda I find deeply depressing. This is not a 'sitting on the fence' position, merely a realistic one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Who said it was 'all the West's fault'? I don't feel the West deserves to feel any sense of responsibility. But our leaders, both in politics and business, could be more careful and responsible about with whom they do business. As one would hope we now recognise, there comes a time when close relations with characters such as the bin Ladens, Saddam Hussein and Colonel Gaddafi are rendered not just undesirable but deeply embarrassing. Surely a more long-termist approach to foreign policy is now necessary?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I would tend to agree. Not going to happen, though, despite the huge limitations of Libya's air arm compared with any of its near neighbours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
If they aren't willing to spend their own blood and treasure on the cause, then they can shut up or hire professionals. It's their problem, their land, their culture, and they can deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Since when have you applied this view to foreign policy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
That is, and has always been my personal view on foreign policy. La La Land and Democracy isn't for everybody. I see no reason to force it upon people that can't make it work. I don't believe in "coalition governments", peacekeeping actions and silly assed UN or EU resolutions. They don't resolve anything, they merely postpone the end game. Memories fade over time and there are many more younger users of forums such as these than there are older users. People forget the amount of real fear there was of communisim, Russia, and Red China at the end of the second world war. The United States was the only nation left standing with enough breath left to stand against them on a global basis and, to the relief of the western world, did so.
I can think of no other nation in history that has acted so altruistically as the United States of America has since World War 2. We spent huge amounts of money on NATO, SEATO, and a dozen other organizations for the protection of others. What meddling it did was usually in the cause of local democracy and stability that benefited the emerging industrial nations. We seized no lands and formed no colonies. Our meddling in the Middle East has very much helped bring stability to the region and for a long time, cheap energy flowing to Europe, Japan, and the rest of the world. Over the years I have had to listen to the usual idiots scream about "it's the oil" everytime we do something in the Middle East. Sure it's the oil. But not for us. We don't control any oil in the Middle East. We don't even get a price break from Kuwait or Iraq. We are accused of propping Israel up. As Obama backs further away from the Middle East people are going to learn that we have been holding Israel back, not up. Look at how things are unraveling now overthere as people begin to sense that the US is going to avoid getting involved.
I'm tired of hearing about how everything is the fault of the US. Been tired of it for years. Fine, do it yourselves. Spend your money and blood.
I would never say 'everything'. But some acknowlegements of failings would be good once in a while, on the part of many a government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
I would also note that most of those "failings" come with the added benefit of many years of hindsight, not what was know or believed at the time.
Just saw something on the news that really angered me. Don't know what news station it is but they seem to allow halfwits to send SMS messages in and this was one of the messages that came through.
"Their mistake was to take Gaddafi's weapons weapons. Did they really expect that a regime was just peacefully going to give up power? You don't protest with guns" from someone in Manchester
What a dickhead! Seriously, you live in a country where you don't even need to protest to have the most basic freedoms which are denied to Libyans and you're telling them how to gain democracy in their own countries? Does this halfwit moron ****tard actually think that a delusional fruitcake like Gaddafi would give up power even if every single person in Libya protested peacefull against him?
For someone to sit in their house in Manchester with all the freedoms in the world and tell Libyans that they're "doing it wrong" is insulting and indicative of the simplistic and narrow views that some people in the 1st world have towards people who have little power and no democracy.
Sorry about all the swear words but this has genuinely angered me so much.
How many people in countries occupied by tyranical forces or even perhaps slightly better countries like Britain in its colonial days gained freedom by walking out in the streets with flowers and singing about giving peace a chance and other such crap. Few people feel that military action should be taken for the sake of it, but I think most people agree that peaceful means of protest can only go so far and sometimes you've got to take military action and kill those who stand in the way freedom for the majority.
I think it is bad policy to promote democracy, and then completely absolve yourself of any interest in facilitating the dogma that you will summon, and stand on in a separate issue. France and the UK have already recognized the new provisional government. (I hope I'm not mistaken about the UK) Either, or could knock Ghadaffi into tomorrow if that is what it comes to. I believe that they are seriously reconsidering a complete alliance with the rebels because of what the aftermath may produce. Diplomacy is a realistic solution to this issue. I suspect that there will be an arrangement that will benefit the people of Libya. But if it comes down to a military conflict I don't believe either France or The UK will tell other countries that if you don't join our coalition you can't have any of the spoils of war
This is really like a hand of poker. Ghadaffi at least should be made to call a bluff.
The UK foreign secretary says they recognise states and not governments so they could officially recognise either side as the legitimate government.
He is calling a bluff. He's not moving any time soon. Britain is still upset about the Col. breaking it off in them and making them look stupid in the dying prisoner for oil deal.
England and France don't give a rat's ass about Lybia, what they are trying to prevent is 500,000 screaming Lybian refugees banging on their front door.
I'm afraid your analysis is flawed on the grounds that the British government has changed since al Megrahi was released, and whatever one may say about the current coalition, I don't think it will be bothered in the slightest by the previous administration's actions in that case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
A) It's Libya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
B) 500,000? You exaggerate somewhat in trying to make your point. The notion that such large numbers would seek to make their way to the UK or France is fanciful. Italy is a different matter, perhaps.
No one wants them. There, is that better?
Whatever, I would consider the current situation to be ample grounds for people fleeing. I very much doubt many will end up in Europe, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Those arguments could also have been used in relation to Iraq, which is why I always hesitated using them in relation to Zimbabwe, and why I would hesitate to use them now in relation to Libya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
not many I guess, here's one that might qualify though:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution
:)
I completely agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz
Let's not forget there was a time that Col. Gaddafi was the popular choice, and still may be with the majority. I think outside agitation has a lot to do with all of this.
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
If you don't like my stance on what was meant to be an appeal for a non-violent resolution, perhaps my opinion on post #35, or #41 are more to your liking?
BTW this imagery of Great Britain being sodomized by the colonel is really clever.
Where would you say he penetrated, at the Thames or at a scenic trout stream in the Scottish Highlands closer to where the prisoner had been incarcerated? :confused:
Sounds quite a lot like his own rhetoric.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Who's to say his own rhetoric is wrong? I don't know the man and don't live there. I do know that al-Qaeda has been a major pain in the butt in Saudi Arabia ever since Iraq invaded Kuwait. With the western former powers unwilling or unable to get more involved in the Middle East, this would be a lovely time to stir the pot.
I meant in regards to people from said country having a revolution, not outside powers invading to do what they see fit :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I think you are paranoid! I myself am skeptical and I have stated so on this thread. The difference is that I will not unilaterally reject the belief that dialog and cooperation is something quite different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Submitted for your antagonistic rejection:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/op...slaughter.html
I still think you have jumped the gun and, are trying to even a score on past trespasses. Your position is too simple minded to understand that diplomacy, and co-operation of the players in that part of the world is a real attainable goal. Perhaps you would dismiss this whole chapter in world history. The situation is dire in Libya but it still has a pulse.
These things take time. It is just your hatred of the current administration, and guilt about the underhandedness of the last that makes you want to see this situation fall apart. This particular one may, but it's only a matter of time, because this is an honest revolution. Hopefully someone who is less partisan, and vindictive will realize that this is a hinge-pin in the fight that has a much larger upside than down.
Although I doubt you actualy care for humanity in North Africa. Thankfully I am confident that this will get done with or without us in the not too distant future.
Quote:
The United States and Europe are temporizing on a no-flight zone while the Organization of the Islamic Conference, the Gulf Cooperation Council and now the Arab League have all called on the United Nations Security Council to authorize one. Opponents of a no-flight zone have put forth five main arguments, none of which, on close examination, hold up.
I see nothing paranoid in my statement. I can easily envision al-Qaeda in the back of the room, urging these rebels on. The article is merely additional opinion on the subject
First of all I apologize for assuming that I know what it is that motivates you politically, and the tone I used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
I do think that you are entitled to your opinion. We disagree profoundly in the arena of terror. Terror will never cease to exist. But I am of a strong opinion that happy free and truly democratic North Africa is a positive change for all these people.
The editorial is only an opinion.
An opinion of a professor of politics and international affairs at Princeton. Someone that has credentials in these matters.
The point I have been trying to make is that diplomacy is an ongoing process, with or without this one succeeding is not the end of the story.
I personally think that country would cultivate freedom as opposed to tyranny. I just have a hard time with hearing lame reasons not to supportf a country that is in revolt for all the right reasons. Technology has finally been the engine that helped these people realizes that they deserve more of what their dictators have tried to keep from them. The fear of terrorism should never trump liberty at home, or abroad only legitimate evidence will.
However I am willing to listen to, or read with keen interest anything that has legitimate connections to real evidence to dissuade me from thinking this movement is the real voice of these people's cause.
But paranoia, leading to unfounded self centered bigotry I will have none of.
I am hopeful for Africa
The Arab League is calling for the no fly zone, but it's time they stepped up and did something about it. This is an Arab issue and it's for the Arabian nations to solve their own problems. They have airforces and armies too, but I guess they don't want to be helping overthrow a dictatorship which would put their own position in doubt!
It's an interesting dilemia.
Lybia has had their membership suspended because of the current situation but of the other major members, half of them have their hands full with problems in their own Countries.
My view is that we should let them deal with it but if the League of Arab States does want to be proactive and impose a No Fly Zone, I would like to see Amr Moussa approach Nato with a request for assistance in a Joint operation.
The problem is as soon as any NATO jets get involved we'll hear universal cries of interference from America (even if America isn't involved!). Which would mark a new Libyan leadership out as being in the pocket of the west. This won't help local stability at all!