Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Also the Pirelli tires have a drop of in performance that would not allow qualifying stints of 16 laps, maximum 2 laps if lucky!
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Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Also the Pirelli tires have a drop of in performance that would not allow qualifying stints of 16 laps, maximum 2 laps if lucky!
Back in the day it wasn't artificial as you couldn't make a tyre that would maintain top performance over a GP distance, now you pretty much can.
To be credible in todays ultra sensitive and scrutinised society, there needs to be some form of relevance and transference for the benefit of such a society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
We now have a genuine green direction with the upcoming 2013 regs, KERS and the relevance of such for hybrids and electric vehicles. Why overlook the biggest single element that can affect performance and its relevance to the 'real world' - tyres?
Errrrrrr, teams wont complain as the Pirelli deal was, conveniently, the cheapest for the teams. Rarely, in my experience, does the cheapest equal the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz
Why was it artificial? Was re-fueling imposed by the rules?Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
From FOTA chair Whitmarsh :
"Bridgestone were always a great partner, but from my position at FOTA I have heard several times in recent years pressure for tyres with more risk," he added. "But now we publicly criticise the degradation of these tyres. The job of tyre supplier is a thankless one, as the higher wear is a feature that was requested to make the show better."
Right now the tire wear isn't only higher it is extreme.
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Don't mind them buddy. They quote nobodies like Withmarsh because there are bitter and desperate. They just don't get it's not high but extreme. I am however relieved it's not extremer or the extremest. What would we have done then?
I think the teams if consulted they would be more discriminate. The whole Circus is bul**** and smoke and mirrors. If the promoters took a reasonable cut say 15% not only would the teams take a deeper interest, they would get the sport/competition right. Then again what is the fun if the best team gets it right? Every time a team dominates for 3 or4 years Bernie starts screaming the sky is falling we have to change everything for some bull **** reason. But back on topic if Pirelli produces the type of garbage that it appears they may that is Bernie faultQuote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
I quoted Whitmarsh , as it is rather relevent to have an opinion from FOTA .Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
I have seen the "super-marble" picture circulated , and I understand there is even some talk of it even being dangerous for those in the stands and marshalling as these marbles are very large and at F1 speeds are going long distances , not just staying on the track surface , creating traction issues .
Manufacturing a tire to last a finite distance is always going to be harder than making it last as long as possible .
They need only to find that balance , and I am confident they will .
By the way , did I sound too bitter or desperate in this post ?
Tyre wear was quite extreme in Canada '10 and Australia '09 too. But those were rare occasions. Now Pirelli had to produce tyres, which degrade faster on every circuit, not just on some. I don't think the season is going to be as bad as the testing has suggested (also higher track temperatures during the season play a role). It could be a 2-stop race on some circuits.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
As for being slower in laptimes than Bridgestone in '10 - F1 is constantly aiming to reduce speeds. Bridgestone made very hard tyres, which also kept the reducing laptimes under control.
we're yet to see the impact of the Pirelli tyres in race conditions - when theres a direct comparison (i.e. after Australia) we'll have a much better idea.
IMO there should be more than one tyre manufacturer in the sport - clever choices and an element of difference between the cars spices things up a little!
Spot on I couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by CLF66
Not spot on .Quote:
Originally Posted by CLF66
Couldn't agree less .
When we had two manufacturers , you had one group of teams with an advantage not bourne out of thier own doing , but due to the tires only .
To me , that always sucked .
If you had the right skins , you beat your neighbour .
Sorry , Charlie , you'll have to beat him on merit now .
And he'll have to do the same .
I agree.
It will be interesting to se the fight between Jenson and Lewis now.
mmm... rubber cake ! :facelick: :p
What a sorry state those tyres really are in. Pirelli to modern day F1 is like Eddy the Eagle to Ski Jumping.... Plucky but as good as useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Looks like they went a bit far on the degradation issue. This is why we have testing, to get these things right. Blaming it on Pirelli is missing the issue entirely.
Fundamental irony #1 :
Ask for a tire that degrades and complain when it does .
More fundamental irony#2 :
Car makes tire degrade , and tire is blamed .
Even more fundamental irony #3 :
It easy to press a bunch of warm rubber from F1 tires together into a fist-sized ball to illustrate the point that they would be dangerous if they were that size . I've pressed a ball together , myself , only it was Bridgestone and Michelin rubber , not Pirelli .
And , it wasn't that big , as I wasn't trying to back up a controversial point in order print lines .
Unfounded accusation. Unless you have proof for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Prove they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
The whole article is merely opinion apart from a couple of quotes totally irrelevant to the article.
All I can say at this point is whoever finds the trick of how to make these designating tires last a reasonable amount of time will walk off with the championship, depending on how long it takes the other teams to copy them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Even in the years of refueling super soft’s were still good for about fifteen laps. Without going off at the rate these appear to be.
AFAIK the presumption of innocence primes over unfounded accusation that need to be proved first! At least in the civilized part of the world! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by skc
Fully agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz
The chewing gum Pirelli came to the game is laughable.
I'm not sure you read my post too carefully .Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I made no accusation .
I simply stated a fact .
It is easy to create a ball of that rubber . I've done it , myself .
Sure , I implied that the press could use such a ploy , but I never said they did .
It would work well to do so , though , wouldn't it ?
The site you quoted doesn't have any reputation for sensationalizing stories , do they ?
I'm also wondering why all the rest of the sites haven't carried that same photo .
At least , I haven't seen it anywhere else .
I would also have expected to have seen this elsewhere as well , because of the safety issue stated , due to the size of the pictured "super-marble" .
You'd have thought they'd be all over that , with insurance of fan safety pushing fans back farther at every new track and old .
I don't know , man .
It seems to me that most of the complaints have been about normal for guys going from the perfect "last the race" tire , to one mandated to be far less than perfect .
And , that is consistent with what Whitmarsh , head of FOTA said .
And , you know , the Macs are seemingly pretty slow so far .
That seems to be consistent with the old story of the tortoise and the hare .
Could this be Whitmarsh's strategy , and another reason for his defence of Pirelli ?
Anything can happen , and it probably will .
In the end , even if that pictorial evidence is to be believed , these are the issues which you hope to solve during this kind of running , and there is still time to correct them .
My understanding of 'marbles' is that they are the little pieces of rubber that scrub off the tyre due to abbrasion/friction i.e. due to cornering and breaking/decelerating.
The fact that chunks of Pirelli have been hurled off the tyre down the straights and onto the pit complex roof suggests tyres that, quite frankly, are so fragile, that they present a potential hazard to spectators.
In fact, as the Pitpass story suggests, the tyre rubber is so soft, it is chunking off the tyre, sticking to the chassis, building up to a size that creates enough drag to dislodge it and deposit it somewhere on the circuit.
I think there are some very nervous folk at Pirelli right now, especially as they are now trying to get support to have FP1 turned into a tyre test day.
It's not looking good, not good at all.
Sure, then you can tell us what was the idea behind implying it if not that of accusing them of doing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Just asking.
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Pirelli thought the war was won the day they have got the contract. They tried to dismiss the crappy consistency of their tires by saying that this is what they were ask to produce. The problem is that drivers were very vocal against their product, and even though teams are keeping their opinions more moderate they are unhappy and will not tolerate this crap for long.
Time for Pirelli to do their homework and if needed steal some engineers from Michelin or Bridgestone to get the work done properly!
Being the sole F1 supplier is great as long as you are doing a great work, like Bridgestone did, however the backlash is huge if things go wrong, as Michelin found out in 2005!
This is not good. The "Circus" could turn into a "Freak-Show" this season. This is not even taking into consideration the likely abuse the tires will take trying to gain positions at the start when the field is tighter and sudden braking (God forbid locking) and acceleration is most likely(and important). Pirelli needs to get the formula right, and pronto.Quote:
Lewis Hamilton has warned the new Pirelli tyres will make the cars slower in 2011.>
I didn't think I was pushing very hard - and the tyres were finished after nine laps, down to the canvas. :eek:
http://en.espnf1.com/mclaren/motorsp...ml?CMP=OTC-RSS
I don't know what to say. All I can add to this is that the Rolex Grand Am Series used Pirelli's exclusively the last several years and the racing was great, and tire failures in and of themselves were a relative non issue. Several 24 hour races at Daytona, and other than cut tires from running over debris or contact with another car I really don't remember any major tire failures the last several years. I don't remember marbles and graining being a big deal either (like it was this weekend at Homestead-Miami with the Continental tires that are being used now-one team had a their race done in by a huge marble about the size of a fist taking out their radiator!!!!) :eek:
I really don't remember that happening with Pirelli. Granted the loads aren't as great as with an F1 car either. I say give them a chance, let's see how it plays out before we hang 'em out to dry.
I think the rest of my post explains that .Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
"In 2007 and 2008, the teams were so quick and pushing each other so fast at the front. They've now slowed down the cars a little, it's maybe a more even playing field." -Lewis Hamilton .
I think this plays right along with the McLaren tortoise gambit .
Lewis , right on cue , whines very specifically about how many laps he can go , giving the opposition some targets .
He states that driving differently , a little slower , can get you from only nine laps , to fifteen .
Given that his boss just said that nobody should be complaining about the tires , being they are what they asked for , it seems to me there's a tortoise in the race .
Breaking news :
Bernie Ecclestone , F1 supremo , recently chided for his idea regarding sprinklers being added at F1 tracks to "spice up" the action , has now come out with a new idea , prompted by a report from a recent Pitpass article .
At a news conference , poolside , he spoke to reporters while sipping on a cocktail , saying :
"You've seen the picture , haven't you ? We've now asked Pirelli for a tire that can make even larger super-duper marbles , if possible .
Adding chicanes has gotten expensive for the tracks , and I'm very sympathetic to thier plight , so this idea is for them .
The RRC , or Random Rubber Chicane , with be distributed mainly by the guys at the front of the pack , making that first lap even more interesting , especially for backmarkers . I can't wait ."
That was tried back in '94.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Thats right they installed one at Barcelona didn't they, and Canada and Belgium.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
They were terrible, but it was understandable after the events of that year at Imola and Monaco.
Exactly. The tires are being tested in winter temperatures so their current performance will not be indicative of their performance in warmer temperatures. They will wear less and therefore last longer in the races. This time last year teams were predicting two or three pitstops at each race because thats how long the bridgestones lasted during winter testing too. While the Pirellis won't last as long as the Bridgestones by design I don't think we'll have a disaster either.Quote:
Originally Posted by CLF66
From what I've read from more knowledgeable sources than Pitpass, what we're seeing in testing is a combination of cold weather and Pirillis very stiff construction leading to serious degredation. What none of you has mentioned so far is that the tyres arent being run in the conditions they were designed for. it should also be pointed out that Pirelli dont have data of their own to work with so they've had to go conservative on the construction to start with, and they do maintain the right to make changes mid season if it proves that they've gone to far. Everything else in this thread is speculation and hot air.
I agree. Besides the fact that Pirelli has stated several times that the tire the came up with is exactly what the FIA have requested. The F1 show will be enhanced by the different teams constantly pitting in to get new set of tires.Quote:
Originally Posted by slorydn1
An other thing Pirelli has said, and I dont know if I should beleive it, is that with higher Summer temperatures the tires will last much longer than they are right now. So, we only have to wait and see.
Final point. With the constant FIA interest in making F1 more affordable, we are supposed to get a better show while the F1 cars are slowing down (as LH said today). To make the show more interesting, besides the artificial rain I would add some fires in a couple of corners. Moving obstacles on the track not to mention spears thrown at the cars.
Kidding aside, I say let the big constructors have 3 cars per team so that money will not be an issue anymore so that we can see again the fastest car winning not the one who made their tires last longer.
It's going to be a problem for Pirelli as they were given a specification by the FIA as to how the tyres will be, but all year they are going to get tonnes of flak about their tyres running out too quickly. Or them blamed for <favourite driver> losing the race!
The FIA have annouced that at some events, teams will be provided with "evaluation tyres" for Friday practice, to allow Pirelli some bonus testing:
Fairy nuff. Makes Fridays a bit more interesting :)Quote:
At certain events, one additional specification of dry weather tyre may be made available to all teams for evaluation purposes. Teams will be informed about such an additional specification at least one week before the start of the relevant event. Two sets of these tyres will be allocated to each driver for use during P1 and P2, and any such tyres must be returned to the tyre supplier before the start of P3.
One additional set of ‘prime’ specification tyres may be made available to all drivers. Teams will be informed about such an additional set at least one week before the start of the relevant event. In this instance, the additional set will be available for use during P1 and P2. One set of ‘prime’ tyres must then be returned to the tyre supplier after P1, and two further sets of ‘prime’ and one set of ‘option’ specification tyres returned before the start of P3.