Bingo! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
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Bingo! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
^ :laugh:
I wouldnt be too sure of that.
Actually, Ralf was not disliked when he drove for Jordan, and indeed he seems popular with the engineers who have worked with him. I have read several comments over the years that he is shy-which comes across as arrogance, same could be said for Kimi...but isn't! -and that actually he is a very good guy to work with professionally and personally.
But driving for Williams, with the name Schumacher, after 1997 (when there were a few certain disagreements between Williams and the Schumacher family) didn't help his cause. Okay he could have been all 'PR offensive' but why!? He's there to race, and I don't think he cares for all the press/publicity side of F1.
As the point of the thread, all I was saying was that perhaps Ralf isn't the 3rd best driver in F1 (he himself did not claim this!), but there's really not much competition driver-wise except for the two Ferrari drivers and Alonso with regard to those who look like champion material.
I think Ralf's time (championship-wise) has long passed, but I don't think there's many drivers who he would get beaten by in equal equipment over the course of a race. Kind of like Gerhard Berger in many respects.
ralf is good i remember a certain spa race ina jordan ;)
and him being told not to pass his teammate. when he was in 2nd place
I dont think Ralf had too good a relationship with Williams after the first couple of years because of Montoya coming in, and he really was Franks golden boy at the time, and it must of affected him because in the last couple of years there he was rather an up and down driver, had some really good races that showed why he is in F1 and some really half hearted races. At Toyota I think he's in a bad situation were the car always has some aspect of its performance that isnt too good and it makes it hard for him to make an impression on a race, so its hard to tell how well he's doing. Plus, Trulli is a qualy specialist an always puts the car well ahead of were it belongs, so it appears that he's out racing Ralf at times.
Ralf Schumacher is too inconsistent. His statement that they are only two drivers ahead of him is ludicrous
Whichever way you look at it,i feel IMO Button,Massa,Heidfeld,Webber are all better than Ralf Schumacher along with KR and FA....
(not counting the rookies like Kubica,Hamilton,Heikki
remember one year ago when Ralfy went off the track 4x times in Austrailia (in the same spot.....)
yup, top shelf talent
not
Credit where credit's due, Australia was one of his better drives last year (3rd place... not too shabby).Quote:
Originally Posted by tsarcasm
Whatever is said about him he really isn't ever going to be good enough to be worth all that money
Everyone is worth what it gets paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian McC
He might not be worth it for you but for sure he is worth it for Toyota.
How is he worth it? What has he done to justify his salary (which is reportedly higher than Alonso's and only second to Kimi's) in comparison with this team-mate who is being paid considerably less?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
He is Michaels brother, for Gods sake!!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Which probably makes Willi Weber the most talented person in the pitlane :crazy:
I'm sure Willi sold Toyota a Schumacher, but conveniently forgot to tell them which one :crazy: :p
Having a Schumacher to do all the PR work for you and so on from the most populated, and I would say biggest automotive consumer too, European country is worth every penny, rest assured. You might also want to name those other F1 drivers that would do a better job with racing AND developing their F1 car.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Taking everything into account only MS would have been a better fit for Toyota's needs, but we all know he wasn't available to anyone but Ferrari.
I really fail to see some people's problem with Ralf's salary. Are you people jealous or what?
Well I would say that the name made a difference, the expression 'you're paying for the name' seems to apply here. Toyota's performance has been poor and the drivers erratic, other than the name I think there are a few drivers that could of cost them less and given them better value for money.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
There was only Heidfeld as other German driver available and his name is not Schumacher, and even if I rate him highly he isn't faster than Ralf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian McC
As a driver Ralf is worth 10 millions a season, the rest is for the publicity
No. It's just that, like Ian, I think there are drivers that could of cost them a lot less and give Toyota far better value for money. Olivier Panis would have been one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
As Nigel Roebuck as said:Quote:
Weber negotiated a massive contract with Toyota, and to this day no one outside the Japanese company can fathom that, for other teams were hardly clamouring for Ralf's services at the time...if he's in anything less than the best car, only freak circumstances would net him a seventh victory.
Ralf has proved to be singularly poor value, having so far scored 65 points for Toyota, compared with the 58 of Jarno Trulli, whose retainer is not on the same planet. As well as that, you'd have to say that overall Trulli has been far the more competitive of the two: six years into its F1 programme, Toyota have still to win a race, but the team's best results - a pair of second places - were both scored by Jarno.
Ralf is most certainly not Michael and his PR value is limited, but whatever value there is seems to be what WW somehow sold to Toyota. Regardless of how may Toyotas Ralf can sell, it's his on-track performances that are in question, and they haven't impressed, apart from the odd occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I say he's been the best point scorer for Toyota so far, can you prove otherwise?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
So Ralf has scored 7 points more than Jarno, so that's about 1.4 million dollars a point I think.
Well Massa might have a better value/point ration than MS for last season as far as I'm concerned!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian McC
Panis? He is 40 years old already.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Anyway, I don't usually care much, how much anyone is paid, but what I think we should take into account in Toyota's case, are previous years and how they hired their current drivers. It means - offering a lot of money is their method to get a driver. In 2004 they were slow and how could you say to a top team driver (who was Ralf then) that hey we are going to pay you 2 million $ per year and you should be content with driving among backmarkers.
Toyota has offered a lot of money to others as well.
In 2002 they offered 10 million $ to Barrichello.
In 2004 they asked Webber to drive for them. Not sure about the salary amount, but definetely bigger than the offer from Renault or Williams.
They offered "the riches of the world" to Räikkönen and Alonso, but also failed to get them.
Trulli has been another rare guy, who had belief in Toyota and refused from the offer of BAR in 2004 (how enticing it could have been THEN!) and preferred Toyota.
There is never such thing that someone is paying a lot of money just with a good will. "Pay as little as possible, but enough that the employee is satisfied and motivated to work," is the principle for an employer. And also Toyota has its own reasons, not just "oh we have nothing to do with our money, so let's give them so much".
Well. As Willi Weber is not Ralf's manager any more, then it would be interesting to see, how successful Ralf will be in his further negotiations.
Added to that, its not Ralf who is failing toyota. Its toyota. I really cant understand this hatred for Ralf, its amazing how he gets bashed no matter what he does, yet a certain former teammate of him can whine for 365 days and still get praise. He has outperformed Trulli, who was easily the equal of Alonso in 2004. I am not saying he is the best driver, but he is a good driver for sure. Someone suggested that Toyota should have hired panis? hahahahahahahaha. Panis is nowhere the driver Ralf is, and Toyota doesnt have problems with lack of money. They have loads of it, the problem is the management. Ralf and Trulli have driven well, any other driver in that car wouldnt have produced better results, with the exception of Michael Schumacher. But then again, you only have one Michael, a big big difference and then come other drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
when Ralf was on his day he could as fast as his brother, remember San Marino 01 or France 03?
problem is that in the last years Ralf has been way too erratic. he's usually faster than Trulli yet when he's slower he's as slow as a Toro Rosso...
surely not the 3rd best driver on the grid but still a decent one(he has won more races than Button and Trulli together), but I don't he's worth what he's paid
True enough, Toyota have failed but the point being made is Ralf is not worth the money, there is no hatred for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
True to a degree. The team have consistently failed to deliver, but neither Ralf (nor Jarno) appear capable of pushing & motivating the team to improve. They appear comfortatble where they are, and where they are (and probably will stay at this rate) is midfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Disagreeing with the criticism does not mean the criticism is hatred. You clearly have a higher regard for Ralf's abilities than many others. Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
I suggested Panis simply because he was available and would have provided what Toyota needed at the time. You say that "any other driver in that car wouldnt have produced better results" but that's unprovable. Even if true it raises questions about the amount spent by the management on drivers. Throwing money in the wrong direction achieves little, as Toyota have shown in the last two years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Even da Matta, Panis and Zonta didn't get so much criticism during the years of 2003-2004 as Trulli and Ralf get now... :dozey:
da matta was good toyota should have kept him! but then i like trulli and ralf aswell so 3 into 2 doesnt go i guess
True, but I wouldn't turn Toyota down if they offered me the same amount! As always, there are two sides to the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian McC
Well, looks like it's all pretty much even at the moment Ralf/Trulli-wise. Interesting Toyota race tomorrow ;) Let's see how many points-per-dollar these two wasters bring home eh :p
The only thing that I'm worried about Ralf is that he hopefully wouldn't run into the back of his team-mate's car like last year in Spain. :p :
Its not about being comfortable being in the midfield, the problem is that the technical personal and especially the management are incompetent. No matter what the drivers do, they cant sort that out. its not about motivation or not being pushed enough, its about lack of talent, especially in the management side.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
I dont like the way Ralf gets bashed so often - jpm fans make up ludicrous stories about JPM beating him, other bashers claim he only got to f1 because of the name and that he is only in it for the money and that he is slow - If all that is so, then why is he beating Trulli, why has he beaten most of his teammates? Ralf gets bashed incredibly much and most of it is totally undeserved.Quote:
Disagreeing with the criticism does not mean the criticism is hatred. You clearly have a higher regard for Ralf's abilities than many others. Fair enough.
What exactly could Panis have provided that Ralf cant/couldnt? Money isnt the problem for Toyota. With Ralf, they got a technically better driver, who is also by far more talented.Quote:
I suggested Panis simply because he was available and would have provided what Toyota needed at the time. You say that "any other driver in that car wouldnt have produced better results" but that's unprovable. Even if true it raises questions about the amount spent by the management on drivers. Throwing money in the wrong direction achieves little, as Toyota have shown in the last two years.
About that Panis vs Ralf comparison.
The goal of F1 is not to save as much money as possible, but to take the maximum from all the resources. Of course Ralf costs more than Panis, but as Ralf is better than Panis and Toyota can afford Ralf, then no problem. I'd imagine that any of the backmarker teams would hire an expensive top driver if they only had money...
Ouch. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Osella
But then again, it is kinda true......
Toyota don't need expensive drivers, they just need good ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Wrong ! Toyota needs a good car, nothing is wrong with the drivers :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
It seems that the good ones are expensive, or do you think that KR and FA come for less than RS and JT? :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
But which ones of those are worth their salary?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
All of them, I think that they all earn what the teams believe they are worth of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian McC
jarno and ralf both done a good job on sunday same with kimi and fernando so all of have earnt this months pay check in my eyes ;)