Who will be Champion ?

I think it is between red bull and ferrari - if one of these drivers win spa and monza it is over.

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Originally Posted by henners88

So do you understand the technical structure of Mclaren abit better now from my previous post, or is there another reason why you have conveniently side stepped it? :eek:

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There you go: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&r...w=1920&bih=854

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

There should not be ANY Mclaren driver included as likely to win the WDC this year. To have Hamilton ahead of Alonso AND Vettel is just ridiculous.

Underestimate the German driver at your peril. Sure he has gone through something of torrid period but remember also that this the same driver that beat a Mclaren in a Toro Rosso in the most incredible wet weather performance we have seen for a very long time.

Secondly, he is in a team that does not exactly guide its drivers as did Mclaren with the for years coddled Granadian-English driver Hamilton.

I expect Vettel to return in part 3 of teh season and to circuits he loves such as Monza and Suzuka refreshed and as the quickest driver in f1 these days who will win more than his current SEVEN pole positions and not make similar errors he has done.

The champion will be Vettel or Webber or Alonso but, anyone belieiving that Hamilton will win this year is merely continuing idiocy that people have over Hamilton: being besotted by him. Get a grip on reality!

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You demonstrate time and time again that you have no consideration or respect for others opinion so why should anyone respect yours?

These crappy McLarens, which were over half a second off the pace at the last race, are 2 and 4 in the championship. This Hamilton that everyone is "besotted" by, is 4 points off the championship lead.

Yes, Vettel should be miles ahead in the championship but he and Red Bull have been atrocious this year in converting potential to results whereas Lewis has driven way past the ability of the car. You had better pray that McLaren don't close the gap to the Bulls during the Summer.

I think you need to get a grip on reality and a sense of respect for others opinions.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Granadian-English driver Hamilton

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Sorry to be so picky StD, but Hamilton's grandparents came from Grenada, not Granada. The two places are thousands of miles apart.

and to be even pickier, if we're classified by our ancestors' nationalities there's very few people who can call themselves pure English :D

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Originally Posted by skc

Yes, Vettel should be miles ahead in the championship but he and Red Bull have been atrocious this year in converting potential to results whereas Lewis has driven way past the ability of the car. You had better pray that McLaren don't close the gap to the Bulls during the Summer.

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Fully agree. I really can't see how McLaren will claw back a second a lap, especially with no track time

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

The champion will be Vettel or Webber or Alonso but, anyone belieiving that Hamilton will win this year is merely continuing idiocy that people have over Hamilton: being besotted by him. Get a grip on reality!

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You talk like you already know the future. You do realize that the Mclaren was never the clearly fastest car for the whole of this season, yet Lewis lies second in the championship only 4 points adrift. What does that tell you?

How do you know for sure Mclaren are not going to sort out the flexible front wing and blown diffuser? How do you know Red Bull and especially their two drivers are not going to cock-up again this season?

Nice post Henners but feel you're wasting your time composing such a reasoned and articulate post to STD's pompous, arrogant and quite frankly nauseating fustian claptrap.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I don't know whether to be slightly angry with this post of laugh at the shocking levels of double standards and inconsistencies. Firstly Vettel's journey to F1 was not too dis-similar to that of Lewis Hamilton. If we push aside Vettel's wealthy upbringing in comparison to Lewis, and the fact his family are close friends with that of the Schumacher's, we are left with two drivers who were spotted at an early age, funded, and nurtured in a driver development programme which ultimately gave them a drive in a top team.

There is absolutely no way you can tell who is the quickest driver out of the two because neither have ever been sat in the same machinery. Saying Vettel is the fastest based on this season would be like claiming Lewis was faster than Vettel in 2008 lol. Of course he was, because his car back then was superior much like the RB6 is this season. Vettel has shown to be matched on pace with Webber and has only claimed 2 victories out of a possible 7. The kid is still learning and displays much of the naivity and arrogance Lewis had when he entered F1, but a complete driver he is not. He may well win the title this year but lets not forget Lewis is 4 points adrift in second place and alot can happen in 4 weeks. If Mclaren were to come back and have closed the gap, a driver like Lewis has proven he can get the best out of the car and your hilarious claim above may well come back to haunt you.

Finally, criticizing forumers on here for being 'besotted' or showing support for their favourite driver is particularly amusing for me when I think back to the over the top, sickly, and frankly rather creepy posts you made about Jenson for the last part of the 2009 season on this very forum lol. It doesn't bear thinking about and I'm sure others here will agree. :p

If Mclaren sort their act out over the next few weeks, I have faith Lewis will cause considerable damage to the WDC race and even clinch it. If a Red Bull driver has to win it this year I think Webber deserves it for his noble effort through some dark times of team favouritism, and their (Marko's) public blaming fest after the Turkey disaster. Webber got his own back on that one after Silverstone as we all know. Alonso may also be a strong candidate for the title and if Ferrari come through the FIA scruntineering and Massa hands him a few more positions, he has as much chance as the other three IMO. :)

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You are just sore because no matter what you will find a reason why Hamilton should have won, ought to have won and is surely the quckest and the best ad nauseum. NO MATTER WHAT!

I support Jense, but I do not pretend,

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Originally Posted by AndyL

Sorry to be so picky StD, but Hamilton's grandparents came from Grenada, not Granada. The two places are thousands of miles apart.

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GrEnada not GrAnada :D

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Originally Posted by motetarip

and to be even pickier, if we're classified by our ancestors' nationalities there's very few people who can call themselves pure English :D

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:D Would SASSENACH be a better description then?

On Lewis - it is he that had the flags of both countries on his helmet at Silverstone and he does spend time there with family.

So I ssume he considers himself a GrEnadian-Brit. Although how relevant either is is questionable considering that he lives in Switzerland now and Jense for example has not effectively lived in the UK for over TEN years now.

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

I still can't see Red Bull winning at Monza - they simply don't have the straight line speed to overtake people or keep them behind. If Hamilton or Button with their F-ducts get anywhere near a Red Bull, then there won't be a contest.

I'm not that convinced about Ferrari doing well there either, although I still think they will beat Red Bull.

I'm going to sound completely crazy and throw Force India and Toro Rosso in the mix for podiums. We know FI is great in low-downforce spec, and Toro Rosso have consitently had some of the quickest straight-line speeds, and they performed excellently at Montreal - a track where there are a lot more corners than Monza.

This is why I think the title race could be a lot closer than expected. Abu Dhabi and Brazil should suit McLaren and maybe Ferrari as well.

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Woody I'm impressed with your analysis! I have some similar opinions, to a point
As things stand right now this is how I project performance at the remaining tracks:

Spa = Any one from 5, RB6, MP4/25, F10, R30 and VJM/3
Monza = MP4/25 & VJM/3
Singapore = RB6 or F10
Suzuka = RB6 or MP4/25
Korea = N/A I dont have a freakin' clue :confused:
Interlagos = RB6 or F10
Yas Marina = RB6 or F10

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

:D Would SASSENACH be a better description then?

On Lewis - it is he that had the flags of both countries on his helmet at Silverstone and he does spend time there with family.

So I ssume he considers himself a GrEnadian-Brit. Although how relevant either is is questionable considering that he lives in Switzerland now and Jense for example has not effectively lived in the UK for over TEN years now.

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Both are English though, and no matter how much your try and flamebate the subject, its not going to change that. ;)

i hope that red bull and the driver do not do what they have done in the last 2 yrars

with unreliability in the last half of the season

but it would be good to see mark win it
it will be 30 years from when alan jones won the championship

yet in that time australia has picked up 7 motogp championships

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Originally Posted by henners88

Both are English though, and no matter how much your try and flamebate the subject, its not going to change that. ;)

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I'm not flamebaiting anything.

Of course they are English - but they are also ex-pats and Lewis likes his connection to GrEnada just as Franchitti does his to Italy.

Lewis did have a GrEnadian flag on his helmet and he DOES live in Switzerland and Jense's homes are in Monte Carlo [mostly] and Bahrain.

Nigel Mansell did not find a reason to live outside the UK.

This is all the truth.

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

i hope that red bull and the driver do not do what they have done in the last 2 yrars

with unreliability in the last half of the season

but it would be good to see mark win it
it will be 30 years from when alan jones won the championship

yet in that time australia has picked up 7 motogp championships

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Australia has had some great racers that participated in Motogp :up:
Aprilia has produced 34 world championship MGP bikes last time I checked. :)

It would be good to see Webber get the championship, if only because the other top 4 have either already won the WDC, or have years to do so (Vettel)

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Originally Posted by motetarip

It would be good to see Webber get the championship, if only because the other top 4 have either already won the WDC, or have years to do so (Vettel)

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AYE!!! :D :D

I agree with you absolutely! Between the 2008, 2009 and if it is Webber 2010 - we would have the most incredible and different stories to success.

It would make such a wonderful movie and even better than usual because it would be TRUE! You can't write this stuff!

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Originally Posted by Roamy

I think it is between red bull and ferrari - if one of these drivers win spa and monza it is over.

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Anyone writing off Alonso at this stage is "living dangerously". We could just see this championship end up similar to that in 2007.

With Red Bull doing what Mclaren did and ironically Alonso being the advantaged one this time - if he wins the title it will for him be very sweet revenge on Mclaren.

Yes, Alonso is very much in the WDC hunt, that is if he has enough engines for the remaining races this year. How many has he left, two? he has to use one new for Spa, dosen`t he, and Monza? A penalty for changing engines and missed points if a DFN. It could be tough for dear Aloso. :(

As for Hamilton. MacLaren are out developed by Ferrari and Red Bull are out of reach. Up until now he had a lot of luck but I´m afraid that he has used all of it.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

Yes, Alonso is very much in the WDC hunt, that is if he has enough engines for the remaining races this year. How many has he left, two? he has to use one new for Spa, dosen`t he, and Monza? A penalty for changing engines and missed points if a DFN. It could be tough for dear Aloso. :(

As for Hamilton. MacLaren are out developed by Ferrari and Red Bull are out of reach. Up until now he had a lot of luck but I´m afraid that he has used all of it.

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will Alonso (Cheat) get to keep the points from Germany or will they be striped by the FIA

i see this the same as lewis and liegate

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

Yes, Alonso is very much in the WDC hunt, that is if he has enough engines for the remaining races this year. How many has he left, two? he has to use one new for Spa, dosen`t he, and Monza? A penalty for changing engines and missed points if a DFN. It could be tough for dear Aloso. :(

As for Hamilton. MacLaren are out developed by Ferrari and Red Bull are out of reach. Up until now he had a lot of luck but I´m afraid that he has used all of it.

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Check it out Einstein!
If what you say is correct, (Fred has two new lumps left for the season). Since Ferrari haven’t had a detonation since they fixed their valve seats.
As I say if you are correct, and if this trend continues (getting the three races off remaining lumps),
that leaves him with one race to use any of the others that have been used, which is not ideal but quite manageable. IMO
I thought his engine situation was much worse than that.

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he has to use one new for Spa, dosen`t he, and Monza?

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No!!!

Do you mean he only has two lumps left that don’t have at least two races on them?

Perhaps someone could provide a link. :confused:

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

will Alonso (Cheat) get to keep the points from Germany or will they be striped by the FIA

i see this the same as lewis and liegate

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Without wanting to dredge up old controversy, I cannot let this pass. Liegate and what occurred at Hockenheim has absolutely no resemblance to what Lewis was involved in that caused the scapegoating and eventual sacrifical lambing of Davey Ryan.

Alonso and Ferrari did not cheat and Ferrari did not exactly try too hard to deny team orders. Nobody was hung out to dry.

Hamilton if you recall LIED not once but TWICE to officials and then suffered NONE of the consequences because Ryan was made the fall guy.

A disgrace that almost caused Lewis to retire from racing and I am sure that there are times when his mind drifts that it is an episode he will never forget what he was part of.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons I dislike him and could NEVER support such a person. A moral coward.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Without wanting to dredge up old controversy, I cannot let this pass. Liegate and what occurred at Hockenheim has absolutely no resemblance to what Lewis was involved in that caused the scapegoating and eventual sacrifical lambing of Davey Ryan.

Alonso and Ferrari did not cheat and Ferrari did not exactly try too hard to deny team orders. Nobody was hung out to dry.

Hamilton if you recall LIED not once but TWICE to officials and then suffered NONE of the consequences because Ryan was made the fall guy.

A disgrace that almost caused Lewis to retire from racing and I am sure that there are times when his mind drifts that it is an episode he will never forget what he was part of.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons I dislike him and could NEVER support such a person. A moral coward.

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:down:

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Without wanting to dredge up old controversy, I cannot let this pass. Liegate and what occurred at Hockenheim has absolutely no resemblance to what Lewis was involved in that caused the scapegoating and eventual sacrifical lambing of Davey Ryan.

Alonso and Ferrari did not cheat and Ferrari did not exactly try too hard to deny team orders. Nobody was hung out to dry.

Hamilton if you recall LIED not once but TWICE to officials and then suffered NONE of the consequences because Ryan was made the fall guy.

A disgrace that almost caused Lewis to retire from racing and I am sure that there are times when his mind drifts that it is an episode he will never forget what he was part of.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons I dislike him and could NEVER support such a person. A moral coward.

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i meant that the driver was involved so the punishment should be the same

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Originally Posted by henners88

We won't talk about the fact Stefano Domenicali, Luca Colajanni, and several other members of the team lied to the stewards in Germany in that case. :eek:

The difference in Lewis's case was the fact it was sensationalised by the media and used to publicise F1 in its opening race. It topped the headlines and gave valuable exposure to the sport at the expense of Lewis and his superiors. The similarity between the two cases is the fact both incidents involved team members lying to the stewards and one committed the crime in an obvious manner whilst the others did it through code. Both incidents carry shame but neither is more serious than the other if we are discussing the 'lie factor' IMO.

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The Ferrari team at no time were accused of lying - Alonso WAS quicker and earlier in therace Massa refused to allow him by - leading to the "ridiculous" comment by Alonso. Vettel was catching up and Ferrari were concerned.

They did not want a RBR Turkey situation and validly so.

That is what they told the stewards - in their view it was not team orders and when sked they said no. But after being accused of this Ferrari quickly realized the possible Catch 22 trap and Luca came oot in the open and disussed the matter.

It is an uncertain rule and this is why there will be a hearing.

And teams such as Renault said that it is not so much what was done but that because of the rule it ought to have been done in a subtle way.

Not to mention that team orders is the right of a team and ALL the teams support that.

Nothing at like the straight forward lying over an incident that was subsequently proven by evidence. Both Hamilton and Ryan lied and did so TWICE until confronted with the evidence.

Then, Hamilton in the most cowardly way, joined in making Dave Ryan the scapegoat.

Hamilton is a moral coward. He acted this way in first challenging Jenson in the London Triathlon and then getting "daddy" to make up a bs excuse when he got cold feet. Then lie-gate.

I do not like weak, mawkish people. Hamilton may be an excellent racing driver, but he is certainly very weak of character.

Thats what happens to spoilt brats.

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Originally Posted by henners88

It was a team order, Ferrari denied it was a team order post race, LdM admitted it was a team order through the teams website, and even the doltish of mathematicians amongst us had a conclusion. The rest is history and has been done to death.

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Thats what I said above - Ferrari first tried to answer by explaining why and then they saw the trap so Luca confirmed that as it was Ferrari's right ......

In the upcoming meeting of the Council nothing will happen to the team because all the teams want the stupid rule, that contravene's the right, to be abandoned.

Ferrari showed great courage and through their action in Germany things will improve.

And importantly Bernie supports them on this as well.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Or stupidity which ever way you look at it. They were fined and may face further punishment so its abit early to claim a revolution IMO. At the end of the day they broke a rule which carries a punishment, and if the FIA give way to them on this, then it opens every rule up for debate.

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I thought every rule in F1 was subject to debate, and upon Bernie's whim. :confused:

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Originally Posted by henners88

Or stupidity which ever way you look at it. They were fined and may face further punishment so its abit early to claim a revolution IMO. At the end of the day they broke a rule which carries a punishment, and if the FIA give way to them on this, then it opens every rule up for debate.

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Not all rules pertain to a teams right.

I dont think Ferrari wanted to cover it up. Motezemolo has gained tremendous stature within FOTA and his power has risen following the "war".

The SF look at team orders as their right - which is correct - and this is why it unfolded the way it did.

With Mosely gone the WSC is open to the influence of Bernie and Todt - both of whom agree with team orders.

I think we could see the rule significantly modified which considers the circumstances such as we saw in Germany.

If there's a lesson all the teams should learn from Ferrari and McLaren debacles it's that they should remember what they said on the radio during the race and get their stories straight before talking to the stewards! I've seen better criminal masterminds at work :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by motetarip

If there's a lesson all the teams should learn from Ferrari and McLaren debacles it's that they should remember what they said on the radio during the race and get their stories straight before talking to the stewards! I've seen better criminal masterminds at work :s mokin:

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Assuming they want to disguise it. Stupid rules or regulations should be ignored.

Ferrari led by Luca is courageous and powerful enough to lead the way.

In terms of Hockenheim exactly WHAT can the FIA do? Overturn the result and proceed to wreck f1? Bernie and Todt will not permit that.

Ferrari have become excellent at hegemony :D

The WMSC will throw the book at Ferrari, they drag the sport in disrepute.

That´s leaves Seb and Mark competing for the title.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

The WMSC will throw the book at Ferrari, they drag the sport in disrepute.

That´s leaves Seb and Mark competing for the title.

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spoken by the same chap that thinks two new engines are only good for two races!
Would you like to make a bet on the outcome of the meeting?

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Originally Posted by Tazio

spoken by the same chap that thinks two new engines are only good for two races!
Would you like to make a bet on the outcome of the meeting?

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For each event an engine is loosing a bit of the top notch power and also being moore unreliable.

The second question. I want it to be a suprise.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

For each event an engine is loosing a bit of the top notch power and also being moore unreliable.

The second question. I want it to be a suprise.

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This is true. However on the face of it could you tell which number of races each engine being used had on it at the last race? For one reason or another cars are on a different sequence. I sure can't. The engines are rev limited for the reason of making a set number last the entire season without penalty. I know there is an easy resource to find out. But I don't know what it is. I had asked for a link to this sight but for whatever reason nobody wanted to supply it upon my request. I had only a suspicion that Fred was on his third at Hungary, because of two subtle hints that Stefano D. gave, and one comment Fred made. Hungary is hard track on engines, and I was very concerned that Fred's was going to expire. I am still going on your word that he has two unused lumps. If it comes down to the last race with Alonso even or close to it with another pilot that didn't have any major problems with engines during the course of the season they will have a distinct advantage as they may well have saved one lump for the last race. However they still cannot increase the revs only race on the max without concern for the next race. In the unlikely event that Fred has a large lead Ferrari may just opt to change the lump and take the penalty rather than risk using an engine that has had three races on it. Neither option is very appealing but like I stated earlier, manageable!

The drivers entered in the 2010 Formula One Championship have used the below listed
number of new engines during this season up to now:

Number Car Driver New engines used so far

01 McLaren Mercedes Jenson Button 5
02 McLaren Mercedes Lewis Hamilton 5
03 Mercedes Benz Michael Schumacher 5
04 Mercedes Benz Nico Rosberg 5
05 RBR Renault Sebastian Vettel 6
06 RBR Renault Mark Webber 5
07 Ferrari Felipe Massa 6
08 Ferrari Fernando Alonso 6
09 Williams Cosworth Rubens Barrichello 5
10 Williams Cosworth Nico Hülkenberg 5
11 Renault Robert Kubica 5
12 Renault Vitaly Pertrov 4
14 Force India Mercedes Adrian Sutil 5
15 Force India Mercedes Vitantonio Liuzzi 5
16 STR Ferrari Sébastien Buemi 5
17 STR Ferrari Jaime Alguersuari 5
18 Lotus Cosworth Jarno Trulli 5
19 Lotus Cosworth Heikki Kovalainen 5
20 HRT Cosworth Karun Chandhok 5
21 HRT Cosworth Bruno Senna 5
22 BMW Sauber Ferrari Pedro De La Rosa 7
23 BMW Sauber Ferrari Kamui Kobayashi 5
24 Virgin Cosworth Timo Glock 5

25 Virgin Cosworth Lucas Di Grassi 5

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Originally Posted by skc

The drivers entered in the 2010 Formula One Championship have used the below listed
number of new engines during this season up to now:

Number Car Driver New engines used so far

01 McLaren Mercedes Jenson Button 5
02 McLaren Mercedes Lewis Hamilton 5
03 Mercedes Benz Michael Schumacher 5
04 Mercedes Benz Nico Rosberg 5
05 RBR Renault Sebastian Vettel 6
06 RBR Renault Mark Webber 5
07 Ferrari Felipe Massa 6
08 Ferrari Fernando Alonso 6
09 Williams Cosworth Rubens Barrichello 5
10 Williams Cosworth Nico Hülkenberg 5
11 Renault Robert Kubica 5
12 Renault Vitaly Pertrov 4
14 Force India Mercedes Adrian Sutil 5
15 Force India Mercedes Vitantonio Liuzzi 5
16 STR Ferrari Sébastien Buemi 5
17 STR Ferrari Jaime Alguersuari 5
18 Lotus Cosworth Jarno Trulli 5
19 Lotus Cosworth Heikki Kovalainen 5
20 HRT Cosworth Karun Chandhok 5
21 HRT Cosworth Bruno Senna 5
22 BMW Sauber Ferrari Pedro De La Rosa 7
23 BMW Sauber Ferrari Kamui Kobayashi 5
24 Virgin Cosworth Timo Glock 5

25 Virgin Cosworth Lucas Di Grassi 5

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Thanks sKc. :up:
In the immortal words of Valve (KnuckleSandwhich) Bounce.
May I have the Link Please!!! :s ailor: :laugh: :bounce:

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Thanks sKc. :up:
In the immortal words of Valve (KnuckleSandwhich) Bounce.
May I have the Link Please!!! :s ailor: :laugh: :bounce:

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http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...home_page.aspx

You want post race info and then Tech report. Usually a good read.

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Originally Posted by skc

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...home_page.aspx

You want post race info and then Tech report. Usually a good read.

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Thanks bro :up: :)