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Bear in mind that the track has been altered since then, but I'm pretty sure the record for Loudon was set by Little Al in 1994 at 175.09, which is about 10 miles an hour faster than Milwaukee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Given that the top speed at Milwaukee last year was 168, its not unreal to believe that we could see speeds at or near the 1990s level, given the increase in the track's banking and other factors.
Pole in 94 or 95 was 21.42, 70's the year before. The 97 IRL was like a 23.15.
the track has been repaved.
Generally a 2010 flat oval IRL is a second plus quicker than the 97.
rh
Certainly can't argue that. Attended every CART race held there. oycotted the IRL. The years of 18-19 second laps were friggin awesome! Glad I got to see indycars run at both tracks!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
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Originally Posted by Dr. Krogshöj
Last time I was up there was after the grandstands were moved to the glen. I was told they cut large wide trenches across the racing surface and tore up a cople other key parts of the track to render it useless. What a shame. that's effin ISC and hte France Family for you. you can see the carnage on MSN maps. it's depressing
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Originally Posted by nigelred5
With fan support like yours, what do you expect them to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
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Originally Posted by nigelred5
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Originally Posted by Lee Roy
As if fan support had ANYTHING to do with their monopolistic actions. Please explain how rendering a facility unusable rather than just shuttering it, is about the alleged lack of fan support. Closing it sure, I'll give you that. Making the place unusable, had NOTHING to do with the fans. It was to eliminate any chance of competition, plain and simple.
Gary
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Originally Posted by garyshell
The track was rendered unusable for liability reasons pure and simple. Look up the term "attractive nuisance"
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Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Uh huh, sure... if you say so. Legal BS. Do you honestly belive that there was no monopolistic intent on the part of ISC? How many other trakcs have they bought and bulldozed?
Gary
http://www.racing-reference.info/tra...ional_SpeedwayQuote:
Originally Posted by champcarray
Scroll to the bottom for CART and IRL records.
What is this based on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mister
http://maps.google.ca/maps?ll=40.728....panoramio.allQuote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
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Originally Posted by Marbles
Looks useable to me. Looks like about half the stands are gone. The IRL could probably come close to a sell-out now.
I didn't see a trench cut across the track, but that's what fill dirt and asphalt are for.
And those would be? (And Nazareth doesn't look very "bulldozed" to me.) Maybe the IRL should buy it and put on those highly profitable Indy Car races there.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Yep. All you need is some 16 year old hot-rodder to break in there and kill himself doing hot-laps. The family would get millions and everyone here would be blaming that evil old ISC.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.asp...zareth%2C%20PAQuote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
That's why I said look at MSN (BING)maps. Depending o nteh resolution, the images are Much newer on MSN. Some show the track covered in weeds with everything that could be unbolted or moved gone. sure, it COULD be rebuilt, but it was torn down to make it toatlly unattative to a track operator to buy it as a race track and run races there. Those google images are at least 5-6 years old. MSN Birdseye view clearly shows the catch fencing all grandstands and the surrounding fencing was removed as well as large holes dug out of the racing surface. The facility was more secure before they did all of that. If one had ever reviewed the estate listings for the property, the property included a clause that it could never be used as a motor racing facility by prospective buyers. NASCAR/ISC was trying to develop the Staten Island project . The had similar clauses in the Pikes Peak property before they abandoned the Denver area. The difference was Pikes Peak could have been a viable alternative to a new facility in the Denver area. NAZARETH was a direct competetor to the two Pocono races which already draw heavily from the New York area. When the Busch races were moved from Nazareth, they had no use for it. DESTROYING it under the guise of liability is legitimate but bull$#it as to the real reason.
Or we could still be attending local modified and usac races at what was a world class facility before they destroyed the place. does ISC dig holes in their tracks between every race?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
Still doesn't look that "destroyed" to me. Those "holes" don't look all that big, pretty simple to fix I imagine. I would have taken all the fencing down too. No need to keep up a bunch of unused fencing that will have to be maintained.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
I went there several times for CART races in the late 1990's, first one in 1995. Loved it. Remember having to buy my tickets a few months ahead of time to ensure getting one. Then the IRL arrived and the grandstands were only about half filled. That's right, blame that evil old ISC for not continuing to operate a money pit.
Sounds like Pikes Peak International is doing pretty well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_P...tional_RacewayQuote:
PPIR reopened September 2008 with a focus on participant motorsports events. A wide variety of amateur racing groups use PPIR for racing, testing and training. Due to NASCAR's ban on testing at tracks with NASCAR races, many NASCAR teams run test sessions at PPIR.
Current on-track activity (2010) includes race events by SCCA, NASA, MRA, INEX, Pikes Peak Kart Racing Club and many other groups, sanctioning bodies and clubs. The Rocky Mountain Muscle Car Classic holds its annual car show at PPIR. Several organizations use the auto cross lot for auto cross and drifting activities. Manufacturers utilize the facility for vehicle expositions, performance driving events and customer appreciation events. Open test & tune days are offered to the motorsports public. PPIR is home to the Speedway Drivers Search television program and racing school. The GO4IT driving/racing school is based at PPIR. Griffith Speed & Custom operates a race shop and race car dealership in the infield. Race fuel and tire services are available at PPIR.
Future plans call for the construction of additional road courses, trackside lots and motorsports business related shops, restaurants and hotel facilities.
As I recall (but can't find the article) the IRL abandoned racing at PPIR before ISC bought it.
Attendance went to hell at Nazareth BECAUSE it was the IRL, not CART/Champcar. Pikes peak is doing NOW. It was closed down by ISC when they were trying to ramrod a much larger project east of Denver, but they maintained the facility as long as they were trying to get into the market. When it became clear no one wanted NASCAR, they sold it as a viable facility because it was in a market where they aren't wanted. It was worth more that way. I've read there are stipulation in the Pikes Peak purchase taht they can't hold high level racing there, but that's hearsay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
So ISC should maintain a track even though they don't want to for whatever reason?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
[sarcasm] Of course they should. [/sarcasm]Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
I thought that's what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
But you're agreeing that attendance went to hell and the track's profitability was suspect?
My bone of contention was the clause that the property could not be used as a race facility, even if some wanted to buy what was a viable facility. Attendance went down at Nazareth, just as it did at all the former Penske tracks when ISC bought it from Penske and promotion evaporated. Penske promoted the CART races in Baltimore. The IRL races were barely promoted in Philly.
For what it is worth, here in the northeast, where the number of lawyers far outstrips common sense let alone any sense of personal responsibility. There is no way I would leave a race track in any sort of usable form - somebody would find a way to convince the judge or jury that ISC was at fault because a couple of teenagers used a plasma torch to cut a hole in the fence, the gate blocking any tunnel or bridge ,and ignored approximately 200 "no trespassing" signs. They would probably even find them liable if the kids drove in an articulated loader to move the piles of dirt blocking the track.....Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
I am no fan of ISC - but what harm does Nazareth do to them if someone else operates it?? I do not see how it draws from any other ISC property....
All that being said, I think the state of the track has a lot more to do with the intended development that did not materialize due to the economic bust than any grand plan to monopolize racing... (although I tend to agree that the France family has aspirations to that effect and has taken many actions to meet that goal....)
As well as most any other place the IRL races.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
I live in the region (south Jersey) and this is correct... There was little to no promotion of the Nazereth race after CART. We heard a little about the Dover race - but very little... When you get down to it, NASCAR does suprisingly little local promotion for races - we never hear much about the races in Dover or Pocono all said and done...Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
Anyway, the other issue is that when the IRL was at Nazareth, aside for the political issues, the cars sounded terrible - who wants to sit in a bowl and listen to that sounds for a couple of hours????
I live in Southern Maryland and remember quite a bit of promotion for the Dover IRL races (which I attended).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
They did promote the hell out of Dover in the Baltimore and DC area for both horrible races, but this region is the primary market for the Dover race. Those races were also in what the second and third full seasons of the IRL? That was also the IRL and Dover promoting that race, not ISC. Honda sponsored the Nazareth IRL races, and that promotion barely left Car Dealerships. A friend of mine that worked for onda at the time told me the number of tickets distributed free by the local Honda Dealers far exceeded actual fan paid attendance, but that hasn't much changed anywhere.
Back on topic, the war is over, hopefully most of us are moving on. If I was in new England, I would absolutely attend New Hampshire. I will be attending Baltimore next year. I actually already have my reservations at the Hilton.
Who wants to listen to race engines on an oval? You kidding me? You are serious right? It is RACING dude....That is part of the deal.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
Back then the sound WAS a problem. IIRC Honda revised the exhaust and some of the timing to alter the really bad gutteral droning. It was a complaint everywhere, not just at Nazareth as I recall.
I think maybe I mis-spoke or was mis-understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
There is good racing sound and bad racing sound - those cars sounded terrible........ I would not have gone to a short oval race to hear them.... I'd go for champ cars or todays car no problem.....
All that being said - I much prefer the sounds of a road course with a wider range of pitch and tone changes due to "working" the engine and the way sounds rolls over natural terrain....
lol...I personally don't like the exhaust note of this Honda incarnation as much as I liked the old turbo's that ran at Nazerath...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
To call_me_andrew: Thanks for the link to http://www.racing-reference.info/tra...ional_Speedway. What an excellent site!
Several years ago I think Hoop98 gave a good explanation as to why the previous generation IRL engines had a rather flatulent sound. I think that was when he also spoke about how mufflers could be used (without decreasing horsepower) to "tune" an engine sound to be more pleasant to the average human ear. But I believe the rapid-fire farting sound had more to do with the crank than just the exhaust configuration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I know how much hell ALMS went through with the D.C. ALMS race. Hopefully the Baltimore IRL race won't be faced with those same NIMBY and noise issues.
90 deg crank like stock cars so they sounded like them. Switced to 180 or flat about 02 or 03 but reality never has much to do with sound descriptions. Then the difference was RPM and the muffling by the turbo. With a 90deg crank you need to cross two cylinders over to the other bank to get "360" sound and extractionQuote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
https://02e267b.netsolstores.com/ima...mk1-engine.jpg
Of course a vote on the preferred sound amongst all "race fans" has never been done, might be surprised how many would vote for that american sound.
Kinda like Harley vs Ninja....
The 5 car showed up at Daytona in the early 90's with 180 headers and had everyone scratching their watches and winding their butts!
Good explanation here.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/bundleofsnakes-2.aspx
Bruiton Smith and Randy B officially announced the race today. It will be held July 30, 2011. More at http://www.nhms.com/media/news/575132.html.
Tickets go on sale tomorrow!!!
I guess my vote would be obvious because I thought those cars were he coolest sounding stock cars ever...... I think Sterling Marlin and the Kodak car were running those and won....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop-98
I rember them. They had a very different sound and were FAAAAST.
The DC race was held in a residential neighborhood. Not really a very smart thing from the beginning. There were houses where a person could stand in the front yard and throw a rock onto the racing surfance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
And ALMS didn't go through hell, it was the idiotic promoters.
Error 404Quote:
Originally Posted by champcarray
The difference level of noise is very debatable. Plus, a "Redskins Game" only happened on one day, and the game only lasts a few hours. This race weekend went on for three days, and with several racing series (ALMS, The SCCA Speed Channel Sponsored Series, Trans Am, and Formula Mazda I believe) to be run, the engine noise (some of it quite loud) went on nearly incessantly the whole time. The Trans-Am and Panoz LMP were particularly loud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Thanks, glad you admit it was in a residential area. And there was one block of houses right across the street from the track, with block after block of houses right behind that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Maybe they didn't want to go to a hotel, maybe they just wanted to stay in their homes.
Face it, you can put all of the "racing fan spin" all you want to on this, but holding a three day race event in a residential area is a DUMB idea. Hey, I was there on the Friday and Sunday and loved it, but even before the event happened I knew that it was sheer idiocy holding a race there.
I think there is a big difference in holding a street race in a commerical area where there are restaurants, bars, and hotels which benefit from the holding event, and holding it in a residential area where none of those things exist, but where there are people who will get tired of hearing the loud sound of racing engines continuosly for three days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
I'm sorry, but I went to many Redskins games at RFK and the sound of the cheers wasn't anywhere close to the sound of those racing engine. (Of course, in my humble opinion.)
Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a track here in the DC area where ALMS could have an annual event.