Mirek, do you know if there will be a different body kit for WRC? (I hope not!)
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Mirek, do you know if there will be a different body kit for WRC? (I hope not!)
It too soon for that I think ;)
The initiative is by Skoda Motorsport or a private team ?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
But this is good :D
Škoda Motorsport
ok, thx :)
In today’s Portuguese Autosport magazine, Malcolm Wilson says that 1.6tWRC regulations are already known by manufacturers, but there are still some doubts about the use of direct injection fuel systems.
According to him, direct injection should raise 40% the cost of a 1.6tWRC from actual S2000 cars.
Regarding the lack of competitiveness of traditional N4 cars, the FIA abolition of further S2000 homologations from 2011 and this prohibitive 1.6tWRC costs, I wonder what cars will be available to national championships, beside second hand 2.0tWRC’s?
Wouldn’t be wiser to allow S2000 new homologations or, at least, to reject direct injection in 1.6t future WRC’s?
Injection at 200bar into the engine during rally is a bit over the top. They go on gravel events, jumps, water splashes etc. Risk is to high versus power gain and costs.
Dont worry new rules that make GrN more competitive are coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I don't think that 200 bar of injection pressure is some issue. It's relatively normal value compared with direct injection systems in road cars. Common VW FSI engines operate up to 150 bar. It's not possible to compare with indirect injection pressures as it works different way.
Is that a good thing though? That surely means more expense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
Personally, a GpN car should be showroom spec with the addition of safety equipment - a cheap way into the sport. They are pretty expensive at the moment.
spill the beans Tomi :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
+1, Making Gr.N, S2000 and WRC more equal is neither logical nor good for anything. Why do we have three classes for them than?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
I've never understood trying to make S2000 and GpN equal. S2000's are proper competition cars, designed for Motorsport. GpN are modified cars used in Motorsport. Compare GpN now and 10-15 years ago.....Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
It's good for those drivers who want a cheaper alternative, if a driver can drive 2-3 rallies for the same cost he drives 1 with a S2000, whats bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
Running cost of Gr.N car rose enormously in last few years with new rules comming. My point is that running costs of WRC, S2000 and N4 are getting closer and closer to each other while they all grow up. In the moment there is no real gr.N 4WD. The gap between N3 and N4 classes is huge now and that doesn't make the step up any easier. I really don't think that it's good way. In my opinion S2000 cars should have been separated from Gr.N cars since the very beginning and Gr.N cars shouldn't have become almost Gr.A. The only way to drive cheap Gr.N car now is to use downgraded one but that eliminates You from higher competition right from start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
Thats the problem with GrpN. Someone who wants to build up experience, can't win in GrpN, because someone with money is able to buy a better car. The groupN cars are quite expensive. A nicely equipped Tommi Makinen Impreza is around 137,000 EUR and I think that is the discounted price. He starts at around 88,000 EUR but that is just a basic groupN. This car has cusco diffs, lightened components, spec2 engine, etc. I agree, GroupN should be like R4 or something like that where you take a production STi or EVO and add the rally specific stuff to it, but not completely modify it into a group A like kit car. I consider GrpN as a kit car class, due to the amount of mods that they do to the cars.
The only reason to bring them in the same class is because there are not enough manu's in the different classes: Gr N 2, WRC 2. Only S2000 is a succes and it seems that that class will be destroyed by the 1.6T WRC concept.
Gr N should be Gr N again, so showroom car with few updates.
1.6T WRC ok, but also for national championships and certainly not more expensive then the current S2000.
Drop WRC for being way to expensive.
According to Mäkinen, he could have entry 2-3 GrN cars in last years NORF to the same price as Kimis S2000, thats less than 1 year ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
I dont know exactly what the new rules will be, but no major changes that would rise the "money used/km" go sky high, in other words a good alternative for privateers in national and international series, who want to drive more with less money.
You're still comparing only with the more expensive variant. Let it be where it is and have a look to the opposite side (or just have a look on absolute numbers, not proportional rate to S2000). The difference between N4 and lower classes is bigger and bigger every year. The running cost of N4 car si now some 1/3 higher than 2-3 years a go and in that time it was higher than before 2006 when there were different rules etc.
I don't really care very much how expensive is the top level of rallying but N4 is not top level car. It's only a step on a staircase. And that step is more difficult to cross every year.
Maybe it shouldn’t be that expensive to throw away 50kg and to use a 36mm restrictor in actual N4 cars, but main problem about N4 it’s the number of manufacturers involved, specially after the close down of Ralliart, that probably will make Gr.N to look like an Impreza trophy (will there be a Evo 11 suitable for rally use?).
The number of manufacturers involved in S2000 has opened a large door to top national teams in order to get importers and dealers sponsoring, but that door will be fastly closed by the prohibitive costs of 1.6WRC cars, mainly because the direct involvement of factory teams in the new category will make FIA’s efforts to control costs completely helpeless.
The lack of N4 manufacturers and the huge costs of 1.6WRC should make FIA rethink S2000 new homologations ending, letting this well born category to fill the R4 vacant space, essentially directed to regional and national series - living 1.6WRC cars where they belong: the world championship.
if Regs allowed N4 to be more competitive I'm sure we would see more evolutions of the LancerQuote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Regarding the technical regulations for the 1.6T engine, the only I’ve found is a short story in the Finnish motorsport magazine VM where they’re speculates which manufacturers will enter the WRC for sure, which maybe and which wont (VW is said to be interested to act as an engine manufacturer).
The regulations for the engine demands by far use of same and identical moving parts of the engine. For example the camshafts will be homologated for different motorsport categories. The boost will be controlled with three sensors of which two of them will be for FIA. This system has been successfully tested in WTCC with the Seat TDI engine that had a boost limit of 2,7 bar.
In another issue of the same magazine there was a story of the S2000 Fiesta (Janne Tuohino).
Few points from the story.
It can be said that the aerodynamics, weight distribution and suspension geometry is better compared to the Focus WRC.
The suspension is little bit simpler compared to the Focus WRC because FIA don’t allow for example roller bearings. All the four dampers must be the same.
Taken from R classes topic:
"The GpN 4WD Turbo rally car category is currently undergoing the process of being renamed as R4 for 2011"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_N
"With the new S2000 rally car category currently under review due to lack of manufacturer interest, R4 which is effectively the new name for GpA (GpN 4WD fitted with a GpA/WRC spec. engine) is being evaluated for rallying in the WRC for 2011."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_A
Manufacturers plan for four cars in 2011
Citroen its DS3 WRC
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/a...r-wrc-2011.jpg
Fiesta RS WRC
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/a...c-car-2011.jpg
Why would it be hard to build a lot of 1.6T cars? If there are only minor changes on the Fiesta S2000, only the motor (and maybe transmission?) should be changed.
Wonder if we will see these new monsters in the Monte and what about MINI, will they ignore the Monte?
Also about Mini, I have understood they want to focus on selling cars, have they discovered IRC market? :D
Direct translation from Timo Jouhki's column:
"Next year will be competed with 1.6 litre turbo cars that have so called high pressure fuel injection and hydraulic gearbox. This means that car prices are not going to be as low as was presumed. Car prices will be closer to current WRC's than S2000 cars."
nice looking cars if those are their final liveries.
I believe that. It is logical that prices will be as high as possible. Info coming from Jouhki should be taken seriously as he has direct access to information sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by vkangas
What is the use of the new rules then?
The new rules help a bit, I think. It needs to go further in my opinion.
I think more parts should be standardized or banned, like I said in one of my previous posts.
I am a firm advocate of "spectacle first" I have to admit.
At last WMSC meeting FIA officially rejected all proposals on paddle shifting so I don't expect hydraulic gearboxes after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaffi
seems like Todt is tough. good.
When was that?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
23rd June: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...sc_230610.aspx
Quote:
Following an invitation to tender to supply paddle shift systems in the 2011 and 2012 FIA World Rally Championships, the FIA received tenders which did not satisfy the criteria. The World Council therefore did not select a single supplier for the 2011 FIA World Rally Championship. The WRC Commission has been mandated to study the possible introduction of a paddle shift system in the future, in line with the evolution of similar road car technology.
Jouhki's column was written a little earlier than that so he might have not got the latest info. Although I think that does not clearly deny each manufacturer having their own gearbox. Anyways I'll hope you are right (as always :) )Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
I may have missed something but what is the story with only 4 cars from each team? Logistics, economics, rules or what?
I think it's about speed of producing, but I think it is nonsense. Maybe the first several rally's, but after that it should go ok. But if costs will be too high it will not matter how fast they can produce.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel157
Big challenge for FIA to revive this championship.
Not knowing this for sure but I assume they will homogolate new cars as late as possible before new season which leaves them little time for preparing news cars for first event. That's why I think they will get only four cars ready for beginning of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaCo
Thats bad news for Ketomaa then, hopefully they get more soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo