some strong words from randy

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Somehow Randy has instinctively understood this, and he is looking to change the "channel"...or at least dump the IRL moniker....

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Randy needs to quit listening to all these CART loving shills that have his ear.

There was no need to disparage the IRL and its fans, with the comments he made. It was a stupid can of worms to open and a stupid time of the year to open them.

There are plenty of folks (some of whom are for some reason still sorta interested in his series) that supported THE IRL, long before Rodeo Randy took this gig. Supported it when many of "our" fans now, thumbed their noses at the league and everything it stood for. So what does Randy do now? Basically tells those folks to go fly a kite.

He stepped on his youknowhat, with those comments.

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Originally Posted by Scotty G.

Randy needs to quit listening to all these CART loving shills that have his ear.

There was no need to disparage the IRL and its fans, with the comments he made. It was a stupid can of worms to open and a stupid time of the year to open them.

There are plenty of folks (some of whom are for some reason still sorta interested in his series) that supported THE IRL, long before Rodeo Randy took this gig. Supported it when many of "our" fans now, thumbed their noses at the league and everything it stood for. So what does Randy do now? Basically tells those folks to go fly a kite.

He stepped on his youknowhat, with those comments.

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Maybe...but half the fans agree with him too. Again, in this series, you have people trying to drive a wedge into the series....

I don't really give a damn whether he changes the name or not, but to the casual fan who wasn't watching the IRL the last 15 years....maybe this changes the perception.

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Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL

FACT: CART teams returned to Indy to do one-offs because their sponsors wanted them to do so. See Phillip Morris, see Target... etc etc

FACT: Honda and Toyota switched over to the IRL why ? Because of Indianapolis.

FACT: When these teams and engine manufacturers switched over, CART was basically emasculated.

Please go on and tell me that these are not facts. Yeah that's right . UH huh .

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Fact - CART remained the dominant series till it screwed itself
Fact - tony georges insane spending was the only reason the IRL lasted longer than moments
Fact - With indy and all the cart stars and Teams - the IRL was an utter an total failure which has all but killed the gold laying goose.
Have you noticed that with some decent varied cars indycar will be conceptually CART? Not the IRL?

If you're an original fan of the IRL shouldn't you be heading over to NASCAR now? Your saviour has miserably failed thrown another tanti and run away - your americans and all ovals is long gone. Why would you stay around this series?

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Originally Posted by Scotty G.

Randy needs to quit listening to all these CART loving shills that have his ear.

There was no need to disparage the IRL and its fans, with the comments he made. It was a stupid can of worms to open and a stupid time of the year to open them.

There are plenty of folks (some of whom are for some reason still sorta interested in his series) that supported THE IRL, long before Rodeo Randy took this gig. Supported it when many of "our" fans now, thumbed their noses at the league and everything it stood for. So what does Randy do now? Basically tells those folks to go fly a kite.

He stepped on his youknowhat, with those comments.

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See TV ratings 95 vs TV ratings 2009. If he gained 1/2 of what was lost since 95 at the cost of all he had in 2009,it's a massive gain. Something vs next to nothing usually is.

I just don't get it. Doesn't matter how low this sport goes, people keep trying to tell me how great it was when Tony was in charge, and somehow Randy is driving the bus of the ledge. My god, the bus went off years ago...

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I just don't get it. Doesn't matter how low this sport goes, people keep trying to tell me how great it was when Tony was in charge, and somehow Randy is driving the bus of the ledge. My god, the bus went off years ago...

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I hate to prolong this IRL vs CART crap. But the CART guys drove their bus off the ledge years before the IRL as well. Then the ChampCar guys drove their bus off the ledge a couple years later than that, but still before the IRL. And that was with 3 guys spending a fortune on their stuff too, the very thing that TG is being blasted for now.

Why can't we all just lay off of TG, or at least include the Amigos in the same breath? If we can ALL realize that EVERYONE who has been in a leadership position for the last 20 years was/is crap, we can possibly move forward.

I don't care who you think started it all. Some would say it was TG and his arrogance. Others would say it was the CART board and their arrogance for not just giving TG the seat he wanted. IT DOESN'T MATTER NOW!

We can keep going over and over these same arguments for years upon years. But what will that accomplish? NOTHING! We've been doing it for years and it hasn't moved anything forward. So stop it right now.

Bye. I am gone.
Carry on with the stupid arguing over the past.
I will stick to F1 and Chit Chat.
You may not care but I suspect others besides me are fed up.
Starter already closed one thread over the constant ----- bickering.

Here's a simple modern day test to check the "IRL" brand out. Go to your address bar and type IRL.com. Don't know what the hell that means but if you type in Indycar.com you'll end up right where you want to be.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

And the series was NEVER refered to as USAC or CART by the general public. Most called it IndyCar.

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Very true. When I was a teenager back in Chicago during the 80's and Danny Sullivan won the 500 after spinning out a group of us were sitting around the next day "bench racing" and one of the guys asked if we had seen "that dude" spin out and win in the Indycar race the day before....not CART race, Indycar race.

If you had asked any of us back then what CART stood for we would have answered those things our moms put the groceries in at the store.

See, in NASCAR, there is NO mistaking who the sanctioning body is. Yeah, we call them Cup cars if differentiating between the series, or stock cars when generalizing the "type" of race car, but the word NASCAR is in the offical name of the series and appears FIRST: NASCAR Sprint Cup Series or NASCAR Camping World Truck Series. Because of that, even though it was a big deal when Winston stopped sponsering the top series and Sprint/Nextel picked it up, there was still no mistaking that a) it was still a Nascar race, and B) it was still the top rung for stock car racing in the good ole US of A

But, what we now call the Izod IndyCar Series (Nee IRL) has been sanctioned by so many different bodies over the years, and having do deal with being the "splinter" series that shattered american open wheel racing that its having an identity crisis is very understandable, in my veiw.

In my simple mind there are only 6 types of race cars.

1) Stock Cars
2) Indy Cars
3) Formula Cars
4) Prototypes
5) GT Cars
6) Dragsters

Now there maybe many many subsets that fit within those 6 like Formula 1 and GP2 cars in #3, or Daytona Prototypes or LMP cars in number 4, but to people like my 76 year old mom or my 10 year old son those 6 catagories pretty much sum it all up and she/he will know roughly what I am talking about when I talk about a race or a crash or something.

Its really all just a name, and all of it comes back to two words: auto racing.

I love them all, as long as it has 4 wheels, a loud engine, and hauls the mail when the loud pedal is pressed, I'm all for it :up:

Can't we just get back to racing and stop arguing about the past?

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Originally Posted by Starter

Easy Drifter has a point. This is the month of May when American OW fans of all kinds should be in their glory. So here's the deal until June -- if you want to bash the IRL or Tony then head on over to CCF. If you want to bash CART or CC or the Amigos then spend your time at TF. If you decide to do it here, you will be on vacation from this forum until, at least, after the I500. No exceptions. Any questions?

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I get the IRLvCART thing

but seriously... no Tony bashing.... I thought after getting fired by his sisters he was fair game 24/7/365

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Originally Posted by peasant

Fact - CART remained the dominant series till it screwed itself
Fact - tony georges insane spending was the only reason the IRL lasted longer than moments
Fact - With indy and all the cart stars and Teams - the IRL was an utter an total failure which has all but killed the gold laying goose.
Have you noticed that with some decent varied cars indycar will be conceptually CART? Not the IRL?

If you're an original fan of the IRL shouldn't you be heading over to NASCAR now? Your saviour has miserably failed thrown another tanti and run away - your americans and all ovals is long gone. Why would you stay around this series?

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CART died because it lacked identity. The IRL survived solely because of its identity, that identity tied to the greatest race on earth.

The fact remains, the IndyCar is still here. CART is gone. ChampCar is gone. Indy Indy Indy Indy.... it's all about Indy.

For me it has never been about Tony George, ovals v non ovals, turbo chargers v. normally aspirated .... It's always been about the cars and drivers that run every Memorial Day Sunday on that very special 2.5 miles of Indiana real estate. And it makes me chuckle to read your rather apoplectic response. Not sure if they teach proper English writing techniques in your first grade class but until they do, it will be very hard to take anything you write, seriously.

It's all about Indy. Nothing less nothing more. Thank you have a nice day LOL

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Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL

CART died because it lacked identity. The IRL survived solely because of its identity, that identity tied to the greatest race on earth.

The fact remains, the IndyCar is still here. CART is gone. ChampCar is gone. Indy Indy Indy Indy.... it's all about Indy.

For me it has never been about Tony George, ovals v non ovals, turbo chargers v. normally aspirated .... It's always been about the cars and drivers that run every Memorial Day Sunday on that very special 2.5 miles of Indiana real estate. And it makes me chuckle to read your rather apoplectic response. Not sure if they teach proper English writing techniques in your first grade class but until they do, it will be very hard to take anything you write, seriously.

It's all about Indy. Nothing less nothing more. Thank you have a nice day LOL

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I'll take it you've resorted to blatant personal abuse because you've lost the argument.


Edit : New site rules apparently - must not discuss

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

Bye. I am gone.
Carry on with the stupid arguing over the past.
I will stick to F1 and Chit Chat.
You may not care but I suspect others besides me are fed up.
Starter already closed one thread over the constant ----- bickering.

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Easy, go easy, not go away... :D

I think it is very important to understand the past, to know why you are in the present, in order to understand where you may be headed.
You must have at least two points to draw a line. But "blaming" one person or another in an endless argument accomplishes nothing

I have never "blamed" anyone for the split in my posts, it happenned and did its damage----and one needs to understand the damage in order to repair it---if such a repair is possible.
The milk is spilt, need to know how it happened to stop it from continuing as well as to be able to answer the ultimate question: knowing if and how it can be fixed or just thrown away.

Given the current econmic situation, my thought is that this year's Indy, is a critical, outcome determinative event for its future

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Originally Posted by slorydn1

But, what we now call the Izod IndyCar Series (Nee IRL) has been sanctioned by so many different bodies over the years, and having do deal with being the "splinter" series that shattered american open wheel racing that its having an identity crisis is very understandable, in my veiw.

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bingo!!
at least on that point...it ought to be be "Indycar", not irl or anything else in the current situ

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I think if they showed up in 96 and blew up the 25-8 in thing in theory, the reality is they couldn't have reached Tony. He would have allowed the 8 fastest CART guys and the other 17 could go pound sand. The harsh reality is anyone dopey enough to create another series in the manner Tony did to "protect" the 500 wasn't a reasonable man to start with...

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The fact is that the 25-8 rule was blown up the very next year. In '97 they started 35 cars specifically because it was decided that it wouldn't be fair NOT to include the 33 fastest cars. There were 2 cars not included because they weren't in the points standings that were in the 33 fastest. So that is why I believe that if CART guys had shown up in '96 the whole thing would have blown up.

From everyone's favorite "reliable" source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_In...ng_controversy

I know I'm probably flirting with a ban here, but I just feel that the true history must be told. Plus I'm talking more about the history of the 500 not really a IRL vs CART thing. Take mercy on me Starter. :-)

Good for Randy. The next thing is actually starting to "change" the image of the series as a whole to be more acceptable, as how Randy has put it.

hind sight is always 20/20

.....and while there will always be debate on whether CART should have just shown up, or ran the US500 or a handful of other decisions like going public or blatently (maybe illegally) conducted the cash burn prior to bankruptc/sale


what is crystal clear is that the creation of a second series had diluted the sport to below niche, and its going to take time, dedication and $$$$, lots of it, to get the sport to even 1/2 way back to where it was


In the meantime...GO SARAH!...and im going to put a hundy on PT

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Again hindsight being 20/20, wouldn't it have been beter to give him a seat at the table where he would have been 1 vote out of, what 20? There his influence, for good or bad, would have been mitigated, but his ego would have been stroked and placated. But that is my point, there was enough arrogance all around (from TG and the CART board). So to only bash TG is not an accurate version of history. If you (or anyone, not singling you out Mark) want to bash TG, then be fair about it and bash ALL of them. I think that everyone can agree there were plenty of dumb decisions made to go around.



And history also has proven the the guys behind CART and ChampCar also didn't understand the dynamics of the sport, the proof is in where we are right now. Tony Geroge does not have a monopoly on arrogance nor stupidity.



Which is why, perhaps, TG should have been given a seat at the board of CART. He did have control of the most important race by FAR to the sport. Why shouldn't he have been included in the decisions? And as I said earlier, had he been 1 vote out of 20 (or whatever it was) his "stupidity" would have been minimized.

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All I can say is Tony knew he wouldn't get a seat at the table. This was all about power, and his ability to use it and run the sport. THAT I think was his goal in the end.

Were the CART board members arrogant? Perhaps...but as history has shown, what was Tony? If not for his parents, he couldn't point to one thing he did on his own that showed he was ready for primetime. CART owners often were successful in other businesses (Hello Roger Penske) and CART at that time was a money making operation and the sport was the equal of NASCAR. There was no doubt they had some right to be proud of what they had managed to build since the split from USAC.

No...There is a lot of blame to go around, but in the end, Tony did what he did. No one MADE him start the IRL, no one MADE him do the 25/8 thing for the first two years, and no on MADE him think he should make the Indy 500 the sole event on the schedule to deserve a seat at the table.

The reality is the 500 had no say in CART because their event wasn't a CART event. Why would he get a seat at the table when he didn't belong at the table. He had EVERY right to make the rules for the event anything he wanted to be, and did with his letting USAC set a different rule for stock blocks. He had EVERY right to everything that happened at that track, and if has just stuck to THAT, I would have applauded him because I think CART would have followed his rules because they needed that 500. What they could NOT do is give him what he wanted, and that was a say in what happened in Long Beach, Toronto, or anywhere else when he had no financial stake in their success; and he had no skin in the game with any of the teams at this point. If he had just created Vision racing, ran the Speedway as he saw fit, in the end he would have had a seat at the table. He instead took the family treasury and created a whole other racing entity, which as Ken/Sarah Fan pointed out:

"what is crystal clear is that the creation of a second series had diluted the sport to below niche, and its going to take time, dedication and $$$$, lots of it, to get the sport to even 1/2 way back to where it was"


In short, CART didn't react well to this interloper, because they had no real reason to either trust his motives, or believe he had a clue of what he wanted. He had no track record of achievement out side the family, and I think they naively thought Mari Hulman would reign the boy in.....It took her 15 years to do it as it turned out...

Of course the name should be changed to Indycar. The series has been about Indycars from long before Cart and and still is after the IRL moniker died.
It's simple, the "casual" fan understands what it means (which excludes anyone on this forum), and it just makes sense.

How about setting up a t-shirt stand outside the Indy Speedway and sell both IRL and Indycar shirts. I am guessing far more Indycare shirts will sell. In order to communicate with the casual fan, Indycar goes along way.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

All I can say is Tony knew he wouldn't get a seat at the table. This was all about power, and his ability to use it and run the sport. THAT I think was his goal in the end.

Were the CART board members arrogant? Perhaps...but as history has shown, what was Tony? If not for his parents, he couldn't point to one thing he did on his own that showed he was ready for primetime. CART owners often were successful in other businesses (Hello Roger Penske) and CART at that time was a money making operation and the sport was the equal of NASCAR. There was no doubt they had some right to be proud of what they had managed to build since the split from USAC.

No...There is a lot of blame to go around, but in the end, Tony did what he did. No one MADE him start the IRL, no one MADE him do the 25/8 thing for the first two years, and no on MADE him think he should make the Indy 500 the sole event on the schedule to deserve a seat at the table.

The reality is the 500 had no say in CART because their event wasn't a CART event. Why would he get a seat at the table when he didn't belong at the table. He had EVERY right to make the rules for the event anything he wanted to be, and did with his letting USAC set a different rule for stock blocks. He had EVERY right to everything that happened at that track, and if has just stuck to THAT, I would have applauded him because I think CART would have followed his rules because they needed that 500. What they could NOT do is give him what he wanted, and that was a say in what happened in Long Beach, Toronto, or anywhere else when he had no financial stake in their success; and he had no skin in the game with any of the teams at this point. If he had just created Vision racing, ran the Speedway as he saw fit, in the end he would have had a seat at the table. He instead took the family treasury and created a whole other racing entity, which as Ken/Sarah Fan pointed out:

"what is crystal clear is that the creation of a second series had diluted the sport to below niche, and its going to take time, dedication and $$$$, lots of it, to get the sport to even 1/2 way back to where it was"


In short, CART didn't react well to this interloper, because they had no real reason to either trust his motives, or believe he had a clue of what he wanted. He had no track record of achievement out side the family, and I think they naively thought Mari Hulman would reign the boy in.....It took her 15 years to do it as it turned out...

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Listen all I'm asking is that people that want to demonize TG for things also look at the other side of the coin. I am more than willing to acknowledge that TG made his mistakes, and I'm an original IRL fan. And I think that most IRL fans are the same. I don't think there are too many people in the IRL "camp" that think the man did no wrong. But quite the opposite is true. Die-hard CART fans almost always blame Tony for EVERYTHING, and absolutely REFUSE to admit that perhaps their guys also made mistakes. THAT is what I can't stand. As long as people are willing to see that mistakes are/were made on BOTH sides, I have no problem with people's preferences.

Indy is the key and has always been so.
Imagine in 1996, Indiana pases a law that completely bans racing inside the state.
IRL dies a quick death without any question, and CART would not.

but so what?

CART still dies off, albeit, more slowly over several years yet the ultimate result is the same: No more open wheel racing in a major format in the USA.

So Indy should be the focus as the only lifeline or breathing tube left and to do well, it needs positive media stuff----and hate her or love her, that means people like Danica...

to paraphrase as maxmach said "It's simple, the "casual" fan understands what it means (which excludes anyone on this forum), and it just makes sense."

Same goes for Danica--the media and causal fandom focuses on her, so instead of chooping off the head to spite your face.......

Once Indy gets going real strong, then there needs to be a strategy to expand an indy car series that captures the same imagination and casual fan interest, so the causal fan pays attention......

but having other races at indy has always sort of diluted the product, esp nascar that uses the exact same track....(at least the motogp and the F1 cars ran the track "backwards" and only used one corner)

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Indy is the key and has always been so.
Imagine in 1996, Indiana pases a law that completely bans racing inside the state.
IRL dies a quick death without any question, and CART would not.

but so what?

CART still dies off, albeit, more slowly over several years yet the ultimate result is the same: No more open wheel racing in a major format in the USA.

So Indy should be the focus as the only lifeline or breathing tube left and to do well, it needs positive media stuff----and hate her or love her, that means people like Danica...

to paraphrase as maxmach said "It's simple, the "casual" fan understands what it means (which excludes anyone on this forum), and it just makes sense."

Same goes for Danica--the media and causal fandom focuses on her, so instead of chooping off the head to spite your face.......

Once Indy gets going real strong, then there needs to be a strategy to expand an indy car series that captures the same imagination and casual fan interest, so the causal fan pays attention......

but having other races at indy has always sort of diluted the product, esp nascar that uses the exact same track....(at least the motogp and the F1 cars ran the track "backwards" and only used one corner)

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At first I thought Easy Drifter and starter were full of s***. But now I'm starting to think they have a point. This sort of garbage will just help split perspectives enter every thread. Perhaps we need a sticky thread for discussions involving the split, and make that the only place too talk about it, then posters can choose to enter or not - rather than have it be able to enter any thread with 1 inflammatory post.

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Originally Posted by peasant

At first I thought Easy Drifter and starter were full of s***. But now I'm starting to think they have a point. This sort of garbage will just help split perspectives enter every thread. Perhaps we need a sticky thread for discussions involving the split, and make that the only place too talk about it, then posters can choose to enter or not - rather than have it be able to enter any thread with 1 inflammatory post.

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yeah, Easy does have a point after all.....and so does Starter.
After reveiwing this and your other posts, I think I will join Easy and leave :burnout:

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Originally Posted by markabilly

yeah, Easy does have a point after all.....and so does Starter.
After reveiwing this and your other posts, I think I will join Easy and leave :burnout:

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I think your having a crack - but I not sure I get what you're saying ???

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Originally Posted by Starter

Easy Drifter has a point. This is the month of May when American OW fans of all kinds should be in their glory. So here's the deal until June -- if you want to bash the IRL or Tony then head on over to CCF. If you want to bash CART or CC or the Amigos then spend your time at TF. If you decide to do it here, you will be on vacation from this forum until, at least, after the I500. No exceptions. Any questions?

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Perhaps you should make your post a sticky so everyone has a chance to see this.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Listen all I'm asking is that people that want to demonize TG for things also look at the other side of the coin. I am more than willing to acknowledge that TG made his mistakes, and I'm an original IRL fan. And I think that most IRL fans are the same. I don't think there are too many people in the IRL "camp" that think the man did no wrong. But quite the opposite is true. Die-hard CART fans almost always blame Tony for EVERYTHING, and absolutely REFUSE to admit that perhaps their guys also made mistakes. THAT is what I can't stand. As long as people are willing to see that mistakes are/were made on BOTH sides, I have no problem with people's preferences.

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Oh there was mistakes made...but the biggest one I can make is going down this road any further...lol....

I am just staying away for the most part. I love the 500...but have a hard time biting my tongue at times....soooooooooo...

XNAY on the Georgeay...

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Originally Posted by maxmach

Of course the [sanctioning body] name should be changed to Indycar.

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I disagree. It would be incredibly confusing if we hear abour the IndyCar USF2000 Championship or the IndyCar Star Mazda Championship.

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Originally Posted by slorydn1

In my simple mind there are only 6 types of race cars.

1) Stock Cars
2) Indy Cars
3) Formula Cars
4) Prototypes
5) GT Cars
6) Dragsters

Its really all just a name, and all of it comes back to two words: auto racing.

I love them all, as long as it has 4 wheels, a loud engine, and hauls the mail when the loud pedal is pressed, I'm all for it :up:

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What about touring cars and karts?

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Originally Posted by NaBUru38

What about touring cars and karts?

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ya caught me on the karts...I forgot about them because they are not on TV...

Touring cars are GT cars (in my simplistic view, anyway...thats the T in GT)

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Originally Posted by slorydn1

ya caught me on the karts...I forgot about them because they are not on TV...

Touring cars are GT cars (in my simplistic view, anyway...thats the T in GT)

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What about rally cars?

How about sprint cars?

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Originally Posted by slorydn1

Touring cars are GT cars (in my simplistic view, anyway...thats the T in GT)

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That aren't the same.

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Originally Posted by SarahFan

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...ed-from-series

and during the month of may no less....

a couple highlights

"We need to blow up IRL," Bernard said. "It needs to be (known as) IndyCar.

"To the purist, (IRL) is a negative acronym. We need to get away from using it."

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It's funny that this non-racing guy seems to really "get it", when people who have been in the sport their whole lives can't/haven't. Why keep trying to push a string up a hill in a driving wind? If/when they get a new chassis and engine formula, they should try to leave ALL of the negatives of the recent past behind. Once Ford determined that the Edsel was a failure, they didn't use that name again on a car. While the Mustang, Thunderbird and Taurus keep making comebacks. Duh!

The powers that be in Daytona have (very successfully) marketed the NASCAR brand name. The IndyCar name used to mean something positive and was marketable. IMO, they do need to try to recapture that. But best to wait until they have something to market (2012, or is it 2013 now?). Afterall, Ford killed the Edsel. They didn't just slap a Thunderbird badge on an Edsel and try to sell it to suckers.