Local Press'es Take on Danica at LBGP

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Originally Posted by Dr. Krogshöj

Patrick was up against Jon Fogarty, Ryan Dalziel, Andrew Ranger, Ronnie Bremer, Bryan Sellers, Alex Figge and Jonathan Bomarito. Legge was up against Charles Zwolsman, Tonis Kasamets, Antoine Bessette, Andreas Wirth, David Martinez and Al Unser III. Personally, I feel the former is a deeper field than the latter.

Bear in mind, I'm not arguing for or against Danica, I don't really care about where this debate is going because I don't really care about her. My argument only concerns the statement regarding the depth of the 2004 and 2005 Atlantic fields.

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She was in Atlantics against a shallower field. Leave it to me to rely on my ancedotal memory mind you...I forgot about Fogarty. I sure as heck didn't remember Ranger in there.

I do remember a 14 car field at Toronto, and she was 12th or 13th...

I also remember Kat Legge going around Zwolsman ( a better driver than some of the guys in the IRL now) at Edmonton and winning at Long Beach as well. THere is NO footage that dramatic of Patrick doing anything LIKE that..

So while you are very correct to point out the great drivers, I will just point out she didn't actually race them much. Kat Legge beat all who were with her 2 times in her season of Atlantics...and Kat was in over her head in ChampCar.

I just think much of what is done and said about Danica all comes back to the fact she is a "hot" girl, and plays up to the part. She wants to be taken seriously as a race car driver in the same way Anna Kournakova went about telling people how much she wanted to be taken seriously in tennis. Well we know how many tournaments ole Anna actually won.

Ms. Patrick has been a Professional Race Car driver for almost 10 years. Her total wins amount to just................1

Can you name me any other driver with that record and still call them "A Talent"?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Ms. Patrick has been a Professional Race Car driver for almost 10 years. Her total wins amount to just................1

Can you name me any other driver with that record and still call them "A Talent"?

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To enhance your point, this is actually her 13th professional year. I had previously though this was her 14th but just looked up where she started pro in Europe at 16, She's 28 now. And it isn't about just wins, of which you pointed out she has 1 where we all know the circumstances, look at the podiums she has in that time! A handful, yes, but in 13 seasons!!!!! Most of that is agains watered down competition in the lower ranks and IRL until the merger! Clearly she's not an 'A' talent as you pointed out.

Well, in the other Series, Steve Arpin qualified 4th for the Nationwide race in the #7. It's going to be fascinating in June when Danica goes back to Nationwide. Guess we'll really know then if it's the car, or Danica, huh?

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Originally Posted by beachgirl

Well, in the other Series, Steve Arpin qualified 4th for the Nationwide race in the #7. It's going to be fascinating in June when Danica goes back to Nationwide. Guess we'll really know then if it's the car, or Danica, huh?

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Don't we already really know??? :o

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Originally Posted by TURN3

Don't we already really know??? :o

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I was playing nice. Trying to turn a new leaf. Sorta.

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!

How soon people forget she finished 5th in the points last season. Actually the best of the rest -- behind the four cars from Ganassi and Penske. This is in a very tight field with many excellent drivers.

Yes this girl has talent and has shown in year in year out. She is having a tough couple of races and now is cannot drive?

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Originally Posted by IMSA

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!

How soon people forget she finished 5th in the points last season. Actually the best of the rest -- behind the four cars from Ganassi and Penske. This is in a very tight field with many excellent drivers.

Yes this girl has talent and has shown in year in year out. She is having a tough couple of races and now is cannot drive?

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Well, I for one, reference the fact she had NEVER been competitive. This isn't new, those of us on this forum that are realistic and objective have been pointing this out for a few years now. It is people like you that fall into the trap that "oh she finished 5th in points", obviously she is the fifth most amazing driver out there then, right? Wrong, she is a crumb collector. How many passes did she make last year TOTAL!? Hint: you can count them on your hands. As has been said over and over in this thread and numerous others, she does not have the ability to set up a car, does not have the courage to race wheel to wheel where, her teammates can't work with her, nor can her engineers and mechanics, her equipment is as good as it gets (oh wait, AA has regressed since she's been there to offer nothing).

So you are clear, this isn't because she's had a couple of "bad" races. You can count her "good" races on ONE hand through 13 years now. Hopefully this condensed version of why she sucks will allow you to see the light. If not, you and DFan should start a separate section called "DreamWeaver" or something...so I don't have to see fiction in a board which is non-fiction.

shes a ***** who would never have seen the bigs had tony not split sport.....

IMO of course.....YMMV

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Ms. Patrick has been a Professional Race Car driver for almost 10 years. Her total wins amount to just................1

Can you name me any other driver with that record and still call them "A Talent"?

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Alex Tagliani.

IMSA I raced pro for ten years when things were a h--- of a lot more dangerous than they are today.
You are right I couldn't do it today but then I am in my 70's.
Danica is not a bad driver of race cars but she is not a race driver.
There is a big difference.

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Originally Posted by rifraf

Alex Tagliani.

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That is a very good call, throw in Vitor Meira for kicks (0 wins). I would call both of them above average drivers but who knows where each of us draw the line for an "A" class driver. One thing I do know is that both Alex and Vitor will drive the wheels off of a car and challenge for W's, even with equipment that isn't on par with the big 3. I highly doubt anybody will win an argument that Danica is more talented than either of these 2...what does that tell us?

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Originally Posted by IMSA

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!

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Danica doesn't have the balls to do what I did every race I raced.

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Originally Posted by IMSA

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!

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I wasn't born with a silver spoon up my butt. I never had to chance to play the sports I love the most when I was younger because my parents didnt have the money

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Originally Posted by rifraf

Alex Tagliani.

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Wrong!

Tags has 8 other professional wins.
6 wins in Atlantics
1 in the Canadian Tire NASCAR Series
1 in the Esso Protec/BF Goodrich Formula 1600 Series Championship

Even with those he didn't have a full time ride for 3 years and the only reason he is running now is because he started his own team.


Next!

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Originally Posted by IMSA

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!

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Obviously, you don't follow this forum very much. There are people here who have raced, some whom have worked on race teams, some who have worked in support tasks like corner workers. They have been on the inside of racing, not just following on an internet blog where the biggest risk of injury is carpal tunnel syndrome. All of them had the "balls" to actually make sacrifices and live the dream, not just talk about it.

What is striking to me is how people who have lived racing view Danica and talk about her. They follow a couple paths. There is the nice politically correct statements that could easily be categorized as "faint praise", silence, or in some cases, open criticism. When she gets praise, it is rarely on her driving, but on her ability to market her "brand". A few former associates (drivers and others) have publicly stated they will someday "tell all" when the mystique and celebrity worship die down. But that reserve about talking about her is slowing going away as time goes on.

If you are one who thinks she is great, fine. But don't try to suggest that people who are critical of that opinion must be a bunch of losers.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Wrong!

Tags has 8 other professional wins.
6 wins in Atlantics
1 in the Canadian Tire NASCAR Series
1 in the Esso Protec/BF Goodrich Formula 1600 Series Championship

Even with those he didn't have a full time ride for 3 years and the only reason he is running now is because he started his own team.


Next!

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I took it as referenced to the top rung myself. Tags absolutely was an accomplished racer in the ladder series but the fact is he has under-accomplished at the top. Still, a very talented racer and even in his little start-up team a threat to win, if not at least run up front.

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Originally Posted by Ken

shes a ***** who would never have seen the bigs had tony not split sport.....

IMO of course.....YMMV

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Sorry, but she would have gotten to Indy Cars no matter what.

$$$ matters. And she would have always been able to bring $$$ and her overrated physical features.

Remember, Dean Hall, Carlos Guerrero, Marco Greco, Lyn St. James and King Hiro "saw the bigs" long before there was "a split". And she is a hell of a lot better then any of them.

She is a point-collecting "driver". She looks decent on tracks where her top flight engineered car is better then 75% of the field. She is not a "racer". Never has been. She isn't aggressive. She doesn't try and pass cars often (unless another female is driving). She is always been much much more about style over real substance.

Give her props for keeping her nose clean and getting to the checkards, while many around her (who are actually racing hard) are either too stupid or too unlucky to finish. Or her team gives her a great pit/fuel strategy that pays off with track position. That's how she finishes where she does. That's how its been for 5 full years now and it ain't changing now.

And people need to stick a sock in the "she finished 5th in points" stuff. Big freakin' deal. 2 teams (and 5 drivers) won all but 1 race last year. She was on the next best team. Marco was horrible last year. TK kept crashing and falling out of races. Mutoh was a mid-packer. The rest of the field was either too inexperienced and/or untalented or in grossly inferior equipment.

She finished 5th and never came close to competing for a race win (and no, she was never going to win at Indy last year). That's hard to do.

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Originally Posted by Scotty G.

Sorry, but she would have gotten to Indy Cars no matter what.

$$$ matters. And she would have always been able to bring $$$ and her overrated physical features.

Remember, Dean Hall, Carlos Guerrero, Marco Greco, Lyn St. James and King Hiro "saw the bigs" long before there was "a split". And she is a hell of a lot better then any of them.

She is a point-collecting "driver". She looks decent on tracks where her top flight engineered car is better then 75% of the field. She is not a "racer". Never has been. She isn't aggressive. She doesn't try and pass cars often (unless another female is driving). She is always been much much more about style over real substance.

Give her props for keeping her nose clean and getting to the checkards, while many around her (who are actually racing hard) are either too stupid or too unlucky to finish. Or her team gives her a great pit/fuel strategy that pays off with track position. That's how she finishes where she does. That's how its been for 5 full years now and it ain't changing now.

And people need to stick a sock in the "she finished 5th in points" stuff. Big freakin' deal. 2 teams (and 5 drivers) won all but 1 race last year. She was on the next best team. Marco was horrible last year. TK kept crashing and falling out of races. Mutoh was a mid-packer. The rest of the field was either too inexperienced and/or untalented or in grossly inferior equipment.

She finished 5th and never came close to competing for a race win (and no, she was never going to win at Indy last year). That's hard to do.

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Well said.

While I may not agree that AGR was the best team, they certainly were one of the "big three" and the best of the rest.

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Originally Posted by beachbum

There are quite a few journeyman racers who fit the same mold. She isn't the worst who has raced at this level by any means. But the main gripes by many fans are that she isn't nearly as good as the hype and she doesn't have the ability or dedication to develop any more than she has. Quite a few (including myself) are offended that she got where she is by playing off her "other talents" and living off the fantasies of sophomoric thinking people.
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not me, not at all.....just check out the sig....
She has real talent....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RWQ_...eature=related

careful what you wish for, you might get it

Bottom line, she is the only SUPERSTAR that the IRL has who gets press....and when she is gone, sliding into obscurity in Nascar, along with the years pulling down her assets, there is nobody to replace her, and IRL will follow champ car to the grave... :(

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Originally Posted by Scotty G.

Sorry, but she would have gotten to Indy Cars no matter what.

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that statement needs a big fat IMO


*theres a major difference between buying a ride and finding sponsorship

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Originally Posted by markabilly

not me, not at all.....just check out the sig....
She has real talent....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RWQ_...eature=related

careful what you wish for, you might get it

Bottom line, she is the only SUPERSTAR that the IRL has who gets press....and when she is gone, sliding into obscurity in Nascar, along with the years pulling down her assets, there is nobody to replace her, and IRL will follow champ car to the grave... :(

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does garnering press make you a superstar?

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Originally Posted by Ken

does garnering press make you a superstar?

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yes, for certain.....perception is reality and reality is NOT perception

Face it, in terms of getting the media attention on IRL races, she is it. :(

If Champ cars had her as a "star" with them instead of the IRL, CC probably still be around and the IRL gone


Tis a shame that OWR in the USA has come to this...

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Originally Posted by markabilly

yes, for certain.....perception is reality and reality is NOT perception

Face it, in terms of getting the media attention on IRL races, she is it. :(

If Champ cars had her as a "star" with them instead of the IRL, CC probably still be around and the IRL gone


Tis a shame that OWR in the USA has come to this...

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YMMV....yes she is a media star....

BUT IMO she is not a superstar

Indycar isn't going anywhere because of or not because of her. Her media attention helped during the weakest of weak years but has steadily worn off (especially last year and into this year). She still probably gets more media attention than most other drivers but the playing field has certainly leveled as the truth about her becomes more obvious to the casual fans. The TV ratings have remained virtually unchanged, teams haven't been able to find sponsorships any easier, and IZOD came on board knowing she's likely going to NASCAR. (I mention IZOD because they are the reason for the marginal improvement in ratings so far this year).

Now contrary to these observations in Indycar, NASCAR has taken the myth factor over and has ran with it on their unknowledgable fan base. She has another 2 years of opportunity there and as I called 3 years ago, it is game set match for miss Danica. She may cling to a ride for 1 more contract after that but by then the NASCAR fan base will have gone the same way as that of the Indycar fan base. You can only hide and over-glorify someboy so long and then it is over unless you can perform.

**Wanted to mention that at Long Beach, I realized it was actually the first event I'd been to where Danica was racing since the old IRL days at Phoenix, before DanicaMania. I was surprised that people wearing Danica gear where few and far between. I saw more people wearing stuff from years and teams gone by than hers. It wasn't non-existent but certainly not the overwhelming cascade that has been in other years and events. Her hauler didn't have a large crowd, a few more people there than at some of the ALMS haulers. I'm not saying her gear isn't still the best selling but there absolutely was a noticeable change in what I've seen on TV from years before. The "SHINE" has been knocked down by a coat of flat black from what I see.

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Originally Posted by Ken

BUT IMO she is not a superstar

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there you go again, confusing perception and reality....talent and stardom...
I think of Danica and talent, and then i think of Miley Cyrus and talent, and get all confused until I remember perception is reality.......

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Originally Posted by markabilly

there you go again, confusing perception and reality....talent and stardom...
I think of Danica and talent, and then i think of Miley Cyrus and talent, and get all confused until I remember perception is reality.......

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no..

there you go again confusing a media star with a superstar

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Originally Posted by TURN3

I took it as referenced to the top rung myself. Tags absolutely was an accomplished racer in the ladder series but the fact is he has under-accomplished at the top. Still, a very talented racer and even in his little start-up team a threat to win, if not at least run up front.

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I stated:

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Ms. Patrick has been a Professional Race Car driver for almost 10 years. Her total wins amount to just................1

Can you name me any other driver with that record and still call them "A Talent"?

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Then somebody stated Alex Tagliani. Tags has several professional wins under his belt and is a much more accomplished driver than Ms, Patrick.

Where would Danica's "marketability" be if she hadn't done the trashy FMH photoshoot, and was relying on talent, like most everyone else? Keep the talent level the same, the spoiled brat attitude the same, but no trashy (IMHO) photoshoots and PimpDaddy ads? Just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Ken

no..

there you go again confusing a media star with a superstar

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IRL came to TMS, and I happenned to be there for last year's race.....the Dallas Morning news had only a brief mention about the race, along with some TV stations and it was all about danica....take that DP away, and reading the papers or listening to the news, there would not have even been a whisper about the race. Zero. and guess how many other names were mentioned before the race? Zero
and the headlines and news was where Danica placed.....if you wanted to know who won, it was mentiond somewhere, buried in the small print, maybe

In this world, the days when talents like Mario, Rutherford, Sneva, Foyt and even Zanardi, who were superstars in their day....even Tony Stewart.... are gone.......replaced by media stars.....or i should say, "one and only media star" sort of like Miley and the Jonas brothers replacing the likes Springsteen, beatles, Stones and so on..


People watch to see names/drivers they love to see and who they associated/identified with as to the racing. That is what brings SPONSORS!!!!the lifeblood, like it or not, yea purists (who I tend to be one of those, as I hate ads palstered all over cars, but that is life...)

And frankly, all the IRL has is Penske and Danica whose names the motor racing public might recognize....and one of them don't drive race cars...although sometimes i can not figure out which one ..otherwise


What is there left after danica? Who? Castroneverwas? :rotflmao:
Was he not the big superstar of that other series....Champ cars???????
All the good that did...

Sad to see, so very sad.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

IRL came to TMS, and I happenned to be there for last year's race.....the Dallas Morning news had only a brief mention about the race, along with some TV stations and it was all about danica....take that DP away, and reading the papers or listening to the news, there would not have even been a whisper about the race. Zero. and guess how many other names were mentioned before the race? Zero
and the headlines and news was where Danica placed.....if you wanted to know who won, it was mentiond somewhere, buried in the small print, maybe

In this world, the days when talents like Mario, Rutherford, Sneva, Foyt and even Zanardi, who were superstars in their day....even Tony Stewart.... are gone.......replaced by media stars.....or i should say, "one and only media star" sort of like Miley and the Jonas brothers replacing the likes Springsteen, beatles, Stones and so on..


People watch to see names/drivers they love to see and who they associated/identified with as to the racing. That is what brings SPONSORS!!!!the lifeblood, like it or not, yea purists (who I tend to be one of those, as I hate ads palstered all over cars, but that is life...)

And frankly, all the IRL has is Penske and Danica whose names the motor racing public might recognize....and one of them don't drive race cars...although sometimes i can not figure out which one ..otherwise


What is there left after danica? Who? Castroneverwas? :rotflmao:
Was he not the big superstar of that other series....Champ cars???????
All the good that did...

Sad to see, so very sad.

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It seems maybe you're getting lost in your own comment about perception and reality. Even if "reality" is as accurate as you say about the papers around last year's Texas race, do you honestly think that if Danica wasn't there there would have been ZERO mention of the race? I think Danica is the convenient and easy story to write but by no means does Indycar disappear if Danica doesn't show up, sorry it doesn't work that way.

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Originally Posted by TURN3

It seems maybe you're getting lost in your own comment about perception and reality. Even if "reality" is as accurate as you say about the papers around last year's Texas race, do you honestly think that if Danica wasn't there there would have been ZERO mention of the race? I think Danica is the convenient and easy story to write but by no means does Indycar disappear if Danica doesn't show up, sorry it doesn't work that way.

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Unfortunately BEFORE DANICA nearly won Indy and started stripping down for PR , there was NO mention of the race after the first one....even the first race got little mention compared to the nascar races....indeed, the champ car race that never was got far far more PR,

But not for the drivers, it was most all because Paul Newman was there....

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Originally Posted by beachgirl

Where would Danica's "marketability" be if she hadn't done the trashy FMH photoshoot, and was relying on talent, like most everyone else? Keep the talent level the same, the spoiled brat attitude the same, but no trashy (IMHO) photoshoots and PimpDaddy ads? Just food for thought.

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markabilly says that weren't no trashy stuff that was markabillity art.....

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Unfortunately BEFORE DANICA nearly won Indy and started stripping down for PR , there was NO mention of the race after the first one....even the first race got little mention compared to the nascar races....indeed, the champ car race that never was got far far more PR,

But not for the drivers, it was most all because Paul Newman was there....

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Are you talking about 5 or 6 years ago? I can only assume with your referrence to when Danica "almost won" Indy...not sure when that was. Maybe you mean the year she was in the lead without enough fuel to go the distance at full-rich. "Almost" winning Indy is what Rick Mears did when Gordy beat him, "Almost" winning Indy is what Scott Goodyear did when Al Jr. beat him, not sure how being passed with 14 laps or so to go is "Almost" winning anything when you end up 4th a straightaway behind the actual winner.

If that is the timeframe you were referring to, I misunterstood you so my reply may not have made sense. Either way, Indycar/CART/IRL/Champcar/USAC/AAA existed well before Danica and it or some new evolution of it will exist well past Danica's existence in another 2 years or so. Danica was more important during her first 2+ years probably 3 of her career while the split was winding down but what was even more important? Indy. It may come a surprise to some but Indy existed before Danica and in fact will also exist well past her. If it weren't for Danica spinning and taking out 3 contenders the year she lead, she would never have been out of sequence to be in a position to lead without enough fuel. Fact is that happened and she led a few laps by circumstanes that she created...and Indy is what made her a star...not vice versa.

What strikes me with Danica is that after she won her first (only) race, we were all confidently told that this was it! The monkey was off her back and the wins would come thick and fast - a championship challenge was even on the cards. And what have we had since? Squat!

I wonder if she believes her own hype or if she is just a clever business woman making the most of her limited racing "ability"?

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Originally Posted by Scotty G.

Remember, Dean Hall, Carlos Guerrero, Marco Greco, Lyn St. James and King Hiro "saw the bigs" long before there was "a split". And she is a hell of a lot better then any of them.

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While I agree with everything else in your post, I have to point out, that unless you are talking solely about Lyn's time in the IRL, I have to say Danica can't hold a candle to Lyn. Lyn had two wins at the Daytona 24 hour, one win at Sebring, ran twice at Le Mans and had a solo win in IMSA at Watkins Glen.

Lyn's IRL career was lackluster at best, but her sports car outings were nothing to sneeze at.

Gary

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Originally Posted by markabilly

markabilly says that weren't no trashy stuff that was markabillity art.....

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Just because you are star struck doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

I once watched all types of racing, including NASCAR's Nationwide series. I turned it off this year. The Danica!, Danica!, Danica!, Danica!, Danica!, Danica! was disgusting.

I think the mistake here is believing that a "star is born" rather than the reality these days: "a star is made". Danica is a star because media companies have promoted her. Granted, she had some looks and some OK driving ability to assist in their promotions. But Danica is the most popular and recognized star in IndyCar purely because corporations for several years now have put money into promoting her image. As the rodeo-guy we have in charge now has said on several occasions, the series needs to do the same for many of the other drivers in the field. Franchitti, Briscoe, Rahal, Hunter-Reay, and many others COULD be corporate "brands" should certain companies choose them. I think Simona could as well. IZOD has already started to promote many of them, and I think we will see a new "star" or two in the series within the next year. And it will NOT be a "coincidence" or a "star is born", it will simply be a lot of corporate money thrown at one or two individuals that gets their image into public consciousness.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

While I agree with everything else in your post, I have to point out, that unless you are talking solely about Lyn's time in the IRL, I have to say Danica can't hold a candle to Lyn. Lyn had two wins at the Daytona 24 hour, one win at Sebring, ran twice at Le Mans and had a solo win in IMSA at Watkins Glen.

Lyn's IRL career was lackluster at best, but her sports car outings were nothing to sneeze at.

Gary

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Lyn was not a bad race driver. Her major problem was coming to Indy Cars so late in her career (at her advanced age).

Danica would have eventually paid her way into Indy Cars, whether there had ever been a split or not. And whether she ever won a race in her life or not before she got there.

Same way many did, in the 80's and 90's.

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Originally Posted by Scotty G.

Lyn was not a bad race driver. Her major problem was coming to Indy Cars so late in her career (at her advanced age).

Danica would have eventually paid her way into Indy Cars, whether there had ever been a split or not. And whether she ever won a race in her life or not before she got there.

Same way many did, in the 80's and 90's.

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Lyn is a class act, and you are right on Lyn for sure Scott.

As for Danica, no, I think she had taken advantage of a weaker Indycar world in the 00's.....in the early 90's she would have never gotten that close I don't believe.

AS for Danica's "star" power, she is the biggest name in a sport that has seen its TV ratings and influence disappear. For all the talk of what her loss to NASCAR will mean, I don't see a downside. Really don't...