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I make no apologies for anyone. Just bear in mind that;Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Vettel turned his car to deliberately push the McLaren into the pitlane, if an acident had resulted, I suggest a majority of the blame will be on the German,
and
Stewards saw blame o both sides, Vettel for drifting, Lewis for not slotting in behind.
Stop being a drama queen. I assume you forget cars would drive through packed pits at full tilt not so long ago......
Funny when Button was a victim before in a restart incident, he causes one himself. Hope he has a rethink if he tries it again. He of all people should know better that's just not on.
Hamilton has the "red mist" and cannot help himself.
We just have to hope that the leniency shown by the FIA does not land up with another driver - or team personnel - bearing the brunt one day.
I know from my days in the military that strong disciplinary action as a commander on a soldier with high potential actually channels him into becoming an extremely valuable asset.
I think Lewis does not understand how to apply that aggression.
Hamilton needs a team manager like the late Ken Tyrrell.
And from the past we are all aware that Lewis can be "economical" with the truth. Pity that, but then none of us are saints either - well the IS ONE exception :-]
Well, we know you would blame the German.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Yup, well done. He was doing his best to make the cars touch....Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
A load of fuss over nothing. It's about time the FIA stopped handing out penalties 'willy-nilly' over small events.
Of course, for your sort it's just easier to blame nasty Johnny Foreigner than admit fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Lewis is building up to a heavy penalty, itīs only a matter of little time now.
Not commenting on the incidents themselves, but people always say we have way more penalties now. I assume that is true I can't remember anywhere near as many going back to the mid 90's as within the last 5 years.
My question is are people who follow F1 loyally like myself happy to see more penalties if they are justified or were they happier when maybe these incidents went unseen or unpunished?
In a race where Button nearly causes a wreck at restart ( and according to the regs was in violation), a race where Alonso pushes his own teammate off the road entering pit lane, a race where MSC displayed many off his bad defensive traits, the author of this thread chooses to focus on Hamilton???
You seem to have forgotten the rule which someone mentioned in another thread which says that Button can do what he wants and almost cause pileups but if two drivers get released at the same time and one gets more wheelspin than the other which results in them essentially going for the same bit of tarmac then he's evil! Evil I tell you!Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Personally I didn't think anything Schumacher did was wrong though, he was tough but fair. He put his car where the others wanted to put their car or squeezed the other drivers gently enough that they had time to react.
What Alonso did was amazingly bad though.
nothing like paraphrasing several peoples opinions into one concise opinion is there?!
Button didn't do anything wrong, so the stewards, drivers and teams seem to think.
Hamilton did very little wrong, probably he and Vettel could have handled it better, but even a reprimand was a bit steep.
Schmacher did nothing wrong, his fight with Hamilton (and others) were hard, clean and from what i saw, very fair.
Alonso, don't really see the issue with what he did either. the kerb on the inside of the corner into the pitlane i would assume delineates the circuit and as far as i'm aware the drivers are free to race to the speed line. Massa stated he stuffed up the exit to the hairpin and alonso was alongside as they entered the start of the pitlane, as far he was concerned there was no issue.
i can't see anything that happened that is worthy of the level of witch huntery engaged on here this week, let alone 3 or 4 incidents.
fortunately the setwards seem to have had a few sensible pills recently and are looking at things with a degree of realism, which makes a nice change
You have to admit that he's done some stupid things though.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I'm not a fan of letting people off just because of previous good behaviour though. Jenson knew exactly what he was doing by backing off the field excessively and knew full well what it could cause an accident and IMHO if Mothere Theresa had done that I'd have wanted her to be penalised.
What race were you watching???Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Hamilton made a crazy move, didn't respect white lines on entry to pitlane. Then made a crazy getaway from pitbox, sliding like hell, thus dangering picrews on several teams. Vettels slide was far less sideways.
I think you need to retune your freeview box in or something. Alonso nearly took his team mate out ON THE PIT ENTRY. That's amateur hour and not the way it should be. What if they'd tangled? What of the drivers who couldn't get into the pits? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
Now I'm all for allowing a little leeway but what we saw today was amateur hour. We saw a driver back the field up to the point where we almost saw a comedy pileup which would be popular on youtube for years to come and we saw Alsono almost rip felipe's front off on the pit entry.
What we saw today wasn't professional racing, it was crap, utter amateur rubbish and drivers should be penalised for such foolish behaviour. We see the FIA warn Hamilton for gently weaving to break Petrov's tow but no warnings or penalties for this, it's hilariously bad.
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
So why is my fave driver a German-ish? Lewis is a pr@t but today didn't do anything wrong (well at least not alone).
A year or more ago I'd have agreed with you but I think Lewis has matured after his difficult year in 2009. I don't think his first 2 years of being at the top straight away did him any good in terms of his attitude but I think he's a more mature driver these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
Just about sums it up Robbie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
I think Vettel and Hamilton were very near the edge of what is allowed - Vettel did move across and Hamilton should have lifted slightly. I disagreed with his comment that they "were racing", yes they were but they were in the pitlane. Overall though I don't think either Vettel or Hamilton had any problems with each other - we're not talking Schumacher vs Hill, or Schumacher vs Villeneuve, or Kobiyashi on Nakajima
As I said in the other thread Jenson was totally within his rights to maintain slow pace (he didn't brake or weave, just kept a consistent slow pace round the hairpin), others behind were too keen to try and get an advantage.
WT
so why do they have a kerb and gravel trap at that corner if its not part of the race track? if someone wnet off their on their own they could block the track. Massa is not bothered, the ferrari team aren't bothered, the stewards aren't bothered, why are you so much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Hamilton did exactly the same to Vettel on the first (or second) stop, is this not a problem to you also?
the comedy pileup never occured, one driver took to the grass cos they misjudged the cars in front whilst trying to gain his own advantage from the restart. i asked you in each of the 3 threads we've had this discussion on now, did you see the reverse replay from Buttons car of the restart? what exactly is erratic and dangerous about slowing down for a hairpin bend. no one nearly hit Button, maybe someone else misjduged it in the field - this happens during most safety cars, someone if braking when someone else is accelerating and they overlap.
i agree Hamiltons warning was stupid, i'm not convinced by teh pitlane reprimand either, but there is no need to balance it out for handfing out penalties like confetti for the most mundane non incidents
Tbh I'd forgotten about what Hamilton did to Vettel because of what happened about 30 seconds later but yes that was dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
You don't get it. You really don't get it. I never said Jenson's driving was erratic in terms of acceleration or decelleration or weaving. Neither did Brundle, what Brundle said was that Jenson failed in his obligation to drive in a manner which was not liable to cause an accident. Tbh if Jenson had done that in a dry race then it would have been fine. But
1) It was damp
2)We'd just had a safety car so people were on coolish tyres
3) Some people were on slicks
4) Some people were on rather worn intermediates
etc etc and if you don't get that then there's little hope. All it would have taken would be one driver misjudging things and there would have been a stupid pileup, thank god Shanghai is one of Tilke's uberwide borefests or there wouldn't have been room for everyone to get out of the way.
There seems to be a school of thought that if someone's reckless actions didn't cause an accident this time then it's all good. That's just complete BS. PSfan has come out and found the reg anyway which shows how much of a ballbag Jenson is and that what he did was wrong.
I wasn't aware you shared Wilko's views, Sonic. In fact, I never thought you did or would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
In fact, I put you in a much higher class than his sort.
actually that was what Brundle said it was, he pinpointed the erratic part in his first assessment IIRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
then you have made 4 qualifications of why it was dangerous and then mentioned another to give context that really should be one of the reasons it wasn't dangerous - its an ultrawide tilke borefest which meant there was plenty of room and runoff so there is room to get out of the way. maybe the stewards took that into account and decided that was enough for them.
its nothing to do with think thinking its ok cos the reckless action didn't cause an accident this time, its because i don't think it was a reckless action.
because the reg exists doesn't mean it was broken
I agree with you. I was growing weary of the FIA, and certain hack stewards, playing with results after the race... especially since their calls often lacked consistency. If they can't make a call during the race, it should be something VERY exceptional for them to change a result afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
The pitlane thing could have gotten someone hurt. But Mr. Vettel also could have moved over without giving up his position, or at least not put the squeeze on to keep Hamilton in that slow lane. I agree with the stewards' decision.
The few flaws and incidents aside, I saw this race as an example of the truly best drivers in the world doing what they do best. So I'm certainly not in favor of putting them in dresses and having them dance around like a bunch of limp wristed pansies. I'm not suggesting any of that hack rubbin' is racin' stuff. But let the dogs hunt!!!
Surely you must realise that there's a tiny tiny difference in F1 between what is nearly an accident and what is a monumentally big accident. Now I'm not going to make it sound like Jenson's actions were going to get anyone killed or seriously injured because that's just not true, there was the potential for a massive pileup and retirements etc etc and that's just not fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
:rolleyes: If his sort don't call people names based on little more than their nationality then, tes I'm right on board with Wilko's class.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Peace and love. :)
Sonic out.
yeah i realise that, i just don't think that this case was anywhere nearly as serious as you doQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I can't see much issue with the pit lane thing as they were released about the same time. There was no blame to the team as it was a split second decision to release him and perfectly correct at that time.
What screwed it up was lewis getting buckets of wheelspin letting Vettel get alongside.
Thankfully it has all been looked at and no further action will be taken apart from reprimanding them both.
This battle is really bubbling up isn't it?
He is not near as bad as MS - Hell he is exciting - leave him alone.
The gate to the pit lane is marked with white lines and so are the pit itself. Driver are supposed to stay inside thoose. Lewis overtook Seb outside thoose lines. Seb drove inside thoose line in the pit, Lewis didnīt, he was trying to force his way in front of Seb, INSIDE THE PIT.
Do you have a rule that backs that opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia 01
I'm not questioning your view, just wondering what the current rule is. I personally thought both of those overtakes on the pit entry could have caused major issue. If the current rule allows it, I think it's a poor rule. I have no problem with racers racing, but most pit entries are very small, and a driver on the inside could easily force one of the two into a wall or gravel trap. This doesn't so much bother me, but the fact that the next driver entering the pit might encounter a totally blocked track does.
As for the Lewis and Vettel incident on pit release, on first view I immediately thought Lewis should have been penalized. Upon slow motion replay I changed my opinion, and thought that if anything Vettel forced the bad situation. Once side by side Vettel gave Lewis no room at first, and the only way Lewis could have backed off was to move further towards the pit boxes, as otherwise their wheels could have tangled.
yeah, I watched the race again and MSC, as you said, was tough but fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
at the end of the day, I have to agree with you. Although I still think the Button restart was of low class. And the Alonso/Massa situation seemed to be left to the team to sort it out, because I think if it was another car there would have been a penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
But as you say it is somewhat refreshing to have a race without unnecessary penalties, and perhaps I just have to get fully readjusted back to a proper race without the police state like stewarding of years past.
so thumbs up to Todt for this refreshing approach.
BUT why were they still side by side down the pit lane??Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
I agree that they were released very close to the same time. Vettel marginally before, but as they said on the BBC you can't expect a lollipop man to be checking not just pit lane but everyones pit box. That was excusable.
What was NOT excusable was that Vettel was a 2 metres ahead of Hamilton AND on the driving part of pitlane. Hamilton was on the side of pitlane, outside white lines and marginally missing airguns and all sorts.
It was ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE for Lewis to race in that fashion which he did. He should have backed off immediately seeing that Vettel was ahead of him and that he had no lane. Instead he raced all the way down pitlane side by side amongst mechanics and air guns etc.
For those saying that Vettel moved over.... why shouldn't he!? Hamilton had no lane! Why should Vettel try to accommodate someone who is somewhere they simply shouldn't be.
Fact is that Hamilton did the wrong thing and, being the FIA loveboy that he is, managed to get away without a penalty of any sort.
ABSOLUTE CORRUPTION. Simple as that. There is no excuse for what happened. Yes the release was very close to the same time but Hamilton, seeing that he had no lane, should have backed off and moved in instead of fishtailing (he's good at that) down pit lane amongst the other team space.
Look how close the equipment is to Hamiltons car. Had he grabbed an airgun with his wheel it could all have been very different.
For 10 seconds Lewis was next to, but marginally behind, Vettel down pitlane. It is NOT Vettels responsibility to make sure there is room for two cars. Vettel clearly got out first and Hamilton should have yielded but did not.
And, if almost comedic, Hamilton has the cheek to wave his arm in the air at the end of the pitlane to say to Vettel "hey, why'd ya move over.... I was trying to overtake you in the pitlane and you moved across on me".
I don't understand how anyone could defend this.... least of all the FIA.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/398...ltonvettel.jpg
Ari, you really don't like Hamilton and it is jading your views of the whole matter, as it is your take on the relationship the FIA have with Hamilton, which is far from great as the many past decision against him have proven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari
But lets not let something like the facts or a sensible view of things take away from your fantastical rant :|
comedy, your pictures actually strengthen the stance the stewards took which was to correctly reprimand both, although I think Vettel really was not playing nice in the pits. As you clearly see in your pictures, Vettel is all the way to the right edge of the line although he had plenty of room to move inside "as to not make the situation dangerous" but as I said. its hard to reason with folks who let their distaste blind them to the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari
I agree. When I watched the action in slow motion there was already contact between Hamiltons front tire and Vettels rear at about the time Hamilton got going straight, as Vettel was squeezing him in. In that posted photo Lewis is already to the right of the pit lines, and the only way to give Vettel more room would be to move farther into the pit box areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
It's not as if Lewis had any safe way to lift and allow Vettel to move forward to he could tuck in behind him. To do so would have risked more contact between the two cars potentially sending the cars into the wall filled with team engineers, or the pit boxes or garages filled with mechanics.
He slid because he had to turn sharply to avoid Vettel. That makes it more the fault of those who released him into the path of another car than his. I have seen several drivers having to take evasive action such as Hamiltons, unfortunately thats what lower peripheral vision from the cockpit will entail.Quote:
Originally Posted by COD
However in retrospect, judging from the pictures, it was very clear that for a considerable amount of the time that Hamilton had enough of a gap not to lock wheels, and hence should have dropped behind Vettel.
Fair points.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
And no, I don't like Hamilton. You'd be happy I didn't post last night and decided to sleep on it instead. ;)
True re the other FIA/Hamilton clashing of heads. I just don't understand how such blatantly unsafe driving could sit with only a reprimand, particularly after his 'talking' at the conclusion of the last Grand Prix.
Each to their own though!
And I think Hamilton is a fantastic racing driver... I just don't like the way he goes about his business at times.
I agree with you 100%. Vettel DID make things unsafe by moving across which was, for safetys sake, absolutely the wrong thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
My question though, as I said above, is what right did Hamilton have to be there in the first place. He came out of his pit bay a couple metres behind Vettel and Vettel had the lane. He should have yielded..... instead he tried to race two-wide down pitlane which obviously is not acceptable.
I don't for a moment think Vettel is absolutely innocent. As soon as he moved over on Hamilton he takes some guilt. No doubting.