Briatore's ban overturned in French court

I get tickled about everybody talking about how sleezy Flav is. Like this was all Flav. Remember, it was all well and good until that no car driving whining little b!tch Piquet Jr. got fired. Then it became an issue real sudden like. It's too bad, that crash was probably Piquet's greatest contribution to team success as long as he'd been there. Don't look for Piquet Jr in NASCAR. They play in the gray areas far too often to have a rat on board the team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

You'd be so disappointed if you found out what really went on in the industry.

---

It is a laughable and, yes, pathetic, that other activities somehow make "Spygate" more acceptable.

Futhermore, a Live feed of information from a rival team is not an everyday occurence.

Of course, having worked in the industry you should know that.

Although admittedly canteen staff are usually busy washing dishes, so your ignorance can be excused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamburello

Although admittedly canteen staff are usually busy washing dishes, so your ignorance can be excused.

---

You are almost as risible as Cannon & Ball.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbolt

Q: can you bet on a driver not to finish a race ?

---

Yep

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Was there really any need to be offensive??? :confused: :mad:

---

Yep, there was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Stop trolling the threads looking for arguements! You've never worked in motorsport so how are you a credible source?

---

Look who's talking! :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SGWilko

You are almost as risible as Cannon & Ball.

---

Rock On Tommy!

I am all for Briatore being punished but let the penalty fit the crime and have it be equal.

Was Senna Banned for Life?

Was Schumacher?

Senna's action was by far the most objectionable. The man willfully drove into a competitor in order to remove him for the race(and the Championship). Much worse than Piquet Jr backing his own car into a wall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

You'd be so disappointed if you found out what really went on in the industry.

---

And your are in the Industry????

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

You've never worked in motorsport so how are you a credible source?

---

If you wish to believe that, so be it.

Although, since you are making statements about the 'industry' and what it does, how are you a credible source?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Not Formula One no, I do have an element of inside knowledge through colleagues but I don't claim to work in F1. :)

---

So you have zero credibility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

And your are in the Industry????

---

I believe he had once an internship at Arrows F1, probably making sandwiches for the mechanics! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Industrial espionage is not uncommon, although obviously its rarely talked about. I have witnessed this first hand btw.

---

What secrets have you sold? Mayonnaise first and then ketchup?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

If you honestly believe that Mclaren were the first team in the history of the sport to use data/drawings/plans etc, then I feel you are welcome to this stance. I happen to believe that in the long history of the sport where winning is everything, the chances of teams previously never using stolen data is very slim. Toyota, Benetton, Ferrari and Mclaren have all been accused in the past of industrial cheating. What I object to is you declaring your opinion as fact, and telling everyone else they are pathetic.

---

You are missing the part where Ron Dennis denied everything for months and called everyone else liars, pretty much unprecedented hypocrisy and misbehavior in F1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

If you honestly believe that Mclaren were the first team in the history of the sport to use data/drawings/plans etc, then I feel you are welcome to this stance. I happen to believe that in the long history of the sport where winning is everything, the chances of teams previously never using stolen data is very slim.

---

There are plenty of instances of data passing to another team when employees leave.

Happens in every industry.

In F1, there has never been before an instance of a live-feed of info direct to a rival.

If you cannot see the the difference, then you're in denial.

Q: what happened where force india(spyker) stole the blueprints of the toro rosso to prove that it was a redbull car ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbolt

Q: what happened where force india(spyker) stole the blueprints of the toro rosso to prove that it was a redbull car ?

---

It happened that they didn't try to hide the fact that they had the document and they also didn't try to integrate STR designs in their own car.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

Rubbish. McLaren's failure to acknowledge that they were caught is what is the worse they did. They are a bunch of effin' cheaters and liars.

---

On the other hand Ferrari were given a legal cheating hand with the secret FIA sanctioned technical veto.

The issue here is not about cheating - it has always been about personal vendetta's by Max against certain individuals.

Briatore is no worse than Schumacher or Senna were for deliberately crashing into people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

You are missing the part where Ron Dennis denied everything for months and called everyone else liars, pretty much unprecedented hypocrisy and misbehavior in F1.

---

Don't make me laugh - heard of Enzo Ferrari amongst others?

F1 is and always has been a tough business. Reaching for or engineering the "unfair advantage" has and always will go on.

The Briatore issue was vendetta not justice.

The French court was correct to rule as it did - now for Briatore and the Piquets time to fight in court!!

Guys I am going to ask this only once:

Stop posting personal comments/attacks and keep it on topic ! And to those who wants to continue their childish fights, do it via PM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamburello

you're in denial.

---

Or deThames, if you live in London.......

[quote="pino"]Guys I am going to ask this only once:
QUOTE]

Ooohhhh, Rene!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

As far as the Renault crash goes, I'm not sure that was cheating. Bad taste maybe, but not cheating. It really happened way too early in the race to ensure any result except a Piquet, Jr DNF and that could have been done by calling the car in for some phantom problem. It's not much different than other sports where a coach has a player fake an injury to stop the clock without using a time out.
.

---

Do you actually know what happened?
It was cheating and it was cheating bigtime. With the SC rules being what they were, renault designed a strategy for Alonso to win by pitting him early and then having Piquet crash and ruin everyone elses strategies. It gave him alonso a very good chance of winning as he got the lead, otherwise he would have had no chance.

Piquet having a DNF was for only one reason - to get Alonso the win, so I see no reason why you talk about "possible phantom problems"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Copse

As a summary: We praise this decision because we value the rule of law higher than revenge. Your comments make it seem like you would fit in quite well as a policeman in some kind of dictatorial state. That usually works rather well right up until it is you or your family that get summarily sentenced and executed.

---

I am not quite sure where you came up with that idiotic comment, but hey whatever floats your boat.
What was wrong with the way the penalty was given to FB? Mosley was involved?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I am evil Homer

. In terms of driver management I think they really cannot stop him.

---

yes they can. They simply wont give SL to the drivers he manages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saint Devote

On the other hand Ferrari were given a legal cheating hand with the secret FIA sanctioned technical veto..

---

that was not cheating.

Ha ha try getting the SL block on Briatore drivers to stand up in court....clue: it won't due to EU employment law.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I am evil Homer

Ha ha try getting the SL block on Briatore drivers to stand up in court....clue: it won't due to EU employment law.

---

If Briatore is banned from being involved in F1, he also cannot manage the drivers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

I am not quite sure where you came up with that idiotic comment, but hey whatever floats your boat.

---

How about we quit insults as well...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

If Briatore is banned from being involved in F1, he also cannot manage the drivers.

---

Not a chance the FIA a) has that as a ratified punishment on its books and thus b) could legally enforce it.

Sure you can ban him from team management positions but blocking drivers he manages? Not gonna happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pino

How about we quit insults as well...

---

Did you actually read his comment about me being suited as a policeman in a dictatorship and why single out me, especially as I did not insult him, but rather attacked his post regarding me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

The fact that Mclaren had a "live feed" of information in the months prior to the 2007 season and up to the first race was, I agree the first to be proved. Mclaren were fined for receiving it through a rogue employee, so why weren't Ferrari fined for allowing their rogue employee pass on this information?

---

Because Ferrari were the victim.

How would it be justice to fine the victim? How were Ferrari to benefit from the actions of their rogue employee?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Did you actually read his comment about me being suited as a policeman in a dictatorship and why single out me, especially as I did not insult him, but rather attacked his post regarding me?

---

Yes I did read his comment that's why I posted a request to everyone, to quit personal comments/attacks...did you actually read that ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

If Briatore is banned from being involved in F1, he also cannot manage the drivers.

---

That's the problem. They can not enforce a ban that involves the drivers he is managing.
They either need all the drivers to give up on Briatore management or change the sanction to something that doesn't involve the drivers.

Anyway I doubt that any team would hire him as well as I doubt that a new team run by him would get a place on the grid, if he was to start a team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamburello

Because Ferrari were the victim.

How would it be justice to fine the victim? How were Ferrari to benefit from the actions of their rogue employee?

---

Everything is possible in the McLaren fan parallel 'reality'. ;)

Evidently the questions were too difficult.

So, to show that I am fair, I'll ask a really simple one.

If, in your cut-throat industry, one of your work colleagues passed critical and current live-feed info to a direct competitor........clearly assisting said competitor and damaging your own companies competitive position..........would you expect your own company to be fined?

I belive that FIA can still stop Favio from beeing part of the F1 enviroment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Yes but they are keen to show the sport that now under Todt, they are an impartial, credible organisation. If they change the rules as Max has suggested in the Daily Telegraph, purely to keep Flav out of the sport, then they are in danger of being as comical as demonstrated in the past 3 seasons. :)

---

Risking others life is no minor crime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

I am not quite sure where you came up with that idiotic comment, but hey whatever floats your boat.

---

I apologise if my comment came out as a personal attack or insult to you. It was meant as a drawing your rather unfriendly "I wonder how those people conduct their daily business..." reasoning to its extreme. I realise in afterthought that it sounded worse than I intended.

My point was an attempt to emphasize the difference between when you think bad guys get what they deserve because who you consider a bad guy happens to also be a bad guy in the eyes of those in power, and when bad guys get penalties they deserve actually based on a trial that examines the facts and gives them a proper chance to argue their point first.

Only in the second case can you have any hope that the views on who is a "bad guy" will correspond the next time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Mclaren were fined for receiving it through a rogue employee, so why weren't Ferrari fined for allowing their rogue employee pass on this information?

---

The real issue is that the intellectual property rights for the car design belong to Ferrari, not Nigel Stepney. The 'crime' is possession of that information without the copyright holder's authorisation - intellectual property theft - so only McLaren and Renault can be held liable in that respect.

Why Renault were found guilty and not fined is a very questionable matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by motetarip

The real issue is that the intellectual property rights for the car design belong to Ferrari, not Nigel Stepney. The 'crime' is possession of that information without the copyright holder's authorisation - intellectual property theft - so only McLaren and Renault can be held liable in that respect.

Why Renault were found guilty and not fined is a very questionable matter.

---

Correct on the first part.

As for the second.....do not forget that initially Mclaren were also not fined.

It was only after it emerged that Mclaren had not been honest with the FIA at the first hearing that they were fined at the second.

Renault were, unlike Mclaren, open with the FIA and, crucially, did not attempt to mislead the FIA.

This included allowing Mclaren to hand-pick the investigative IT firm to look on Renault's systems.

Furthermore, Renault were only called to one disciplinary hearing.

Oh, and also worth pointing out that Mackereth's info was not a live-feed.

Having read the WMSC decision I'd say the penalty was escaped as it was unproven or unprovable that Renault intended to incorporate McLaren design into their car. I wouldn't say that Renault were completely honest in their own internal investigation report.

McLaren do have a nasty habit of making life difficult for themselves.

The chrashgate was Flavios wrong, no doubt.

The spygate was not Rons wrongdoing, in the first place I belive, But in the second??

And the liegate, what have you done Ron!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Ron wasn't completely honest at first, but that may have been a) because he was assured by his personel that they had done nothing wrong, b) He was conducting an internal investigation and was unsure of the facts.

Flav knew about crashgate as it was impossible to be on the pitwall giving direction and have no knowledge IMO.

Liegate as far as I am aware did not involve Ron as he had stepped down by this point I do believe. It was the fault of Lewis Hamilton, Dave Ryan and the PR team. :)

---

According rumours, they was phoning Ron before the second hearing.