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Here again, playing devil's advocate, a bunch of current scientific fact just got the crap kicked out of it in Copenhagen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
Your paragraph, to a less than careful reader, would look as though this was all proven fact, instead of theory and speculation based on observation.
Do you choose which girls turn you on? No. It just happens.
There are five or six gay people I'd class as close friends or family (they're great gift-buyers, by the way) and all of them say something like "I first realised I was gay when I was 15, 16...etc". Nobody says "I first decided I was gay..." I've said it before and I'll say it again: Fiero - If you've made the choice to be straight then you must have some sort of homosexual feelings. Otherwise there's no choice to be made is there?
Jon, first off, the only animals that rape are humans. We are the only species that has sex for reasons OTHER than reproduction. The higher primates are the only members of the animal kingdom that show any homosexual behaviour. There is no RAPE in the animal kingdom. Rape is a human behaviour based on our desire. That sex for sex's sake or in the case of Rape, power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Homosexuality is one offshoot our of our complex brain, emotional control circuitry and advanced emotions. I stand by the idea it is part of the human condition. Not better or worse, just part of it.
Yes, I believe in some cases, a choice is made. Are you prepared to state as absolute fact that no person in the world is involved in a homosexual relationship by choice? If you ever get sentenced to a prison term, one phrase you'll hear a lot is "gay for the stay"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
I got what you were pointing out immediately Fiero. My only difference with you is on it being involuntary, but in the case of Bisexual behaviour, I do believe that is a choice. Then again, maybe it isn't either. We know there is study after study on this sort of stuff. Look at people who are pedophiles. Are THEY making a conscious decision or are they compelled by urges they cannot hold back and they lose control? There is a multitude of reasons for a lot of sexual activity, some voluntary, some just nature taking control.
I do agree with you tho that we keep forgetting other socieites view sexualilty and another behaviours we tolerate with an intolerant view. Funny, the same people who get all bent out of shape and say "how dare they?!" often are the same ones saying in the case of Iraq or Afghanistan that it is wrong for us to impose our values of democracy and equality on their society.
I see nothing but hypocracy if you say we shouldn't tolerate Ugandans killing Gays, yet think it is wrong to try to give Iraq a functioning democratic society. Either you want to defend human rights and decency or you are going to chicken out when it means you might have to fight for your rights.
This would be no different than the Allies hearing about the Jews being decimated in Europe deciding they didn't need to conquer all of Germany because it would be too messy and it wouldn't be right to impose our values on the Nazi's. It is a right in our modern societies to not be persecuted or attacked for our sexual choice among consenting adults. Either we stand behind it, or we don't.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
I'm in a straight relationship by choice, but that doesn't mean I chose to be straight.
Perhaps. Still all high functioning mammals tho, with more radical behaviour the smarter the animal is. Still cant imagine there is too many rapes of GAY animals, if any. We are getting side tracked here. The point is most of this behaviour is a HUMAN behaviour. Bottlenose dolphins and the odd other animal masturbating are rare exceptions. What is more, we don't know and cannot know what is driving these behaviours. We cannot know if it is a decision based on whim, what feels good or just a straight biological urge when presented with a set of circumstances. Only the human species devotes large amounts of its brain to thinking about the next time it can get lucky; and it has nothing to do wanting to actually procreate. We spend MORE time trying NOT to procreate while having sex.....no other animals do THAT.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
It's a common myth that animals don't have sex for pleasure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/18/sc...pagewanted=all
How would you know? You ask your cat if she wanted to get jumped on the fence last night? I have watched enough shows on a lot of this stuff, and Cats don't have sex just for the heck of it. They do it because the female is in heat. They may ENJOY the act, or they may not, we will never know, but spare me this notion that all animals have human emotional responses to the sexual act. All you need to know is that if you spay a female cat, males wont come up to her. She gives off no hormonal urges or scent to the males. Males are not jumping her because they want to get lucky, they were doing it to make kittens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
My female lab is spayed and male dogs have no interest in her. I haven't had an urge to jump her but will keep her away from Brown, Jon Brow as he doesn't question the nature of his urges.
I'm getting lectures on tolerance from people I'm pretty sure I've seen be intolerant of people referred to as "chavs" and "travelers".
The real issue here tho isn't that Homosexuality is a choice or not, we pretty much all agree that for all intensive purposes it is involuntary. The problem is we don't know how to understand cultures, mainly in the Middle East who don't tolerate it. Heck, we even have people who would peresecute Christian churchs who see it as a sin, even tho none of those churchs actually do anything but say how bad it is.
We may not like the fact not everyone is as enlighted or libreal about this, but a fine line MUST be drawn between opinion on this, and imposing one's views. We must tolerate the fact in our society some groups, such as the RC church and others do NOT accept homosexualty. That said, as long as they don't deny the right of a homosexual to have civic equality or attack them (This is Uganda's crime against humanity), it is alright to not like the whole concept of homosexualty. Still isn't right, but you cant make people THINK as you do.
It is why it is so complex and emotional. Up til a few generations ago, it was a crime against society or at least openly attacked in countries now where it is celebrated in the open. You cannot change a society over night, nor can you expect primative societies to make that change easily.
Uganda, Iran and others are commiting crimes really against the human condition BUT at least we can understand why they do it. We know our society did much the same not 100 years ago. Change isn't easy and it takes generations on something like this. It is a weakness of many in the gay rights movement that they forget the tolerance of their preference is a new one. They automatically assume we should all embrace and love the fact they exist. It isn't my job to embrace or encourage it. It is what it is...part of the human condition.
Ok. I had a lady that lived with me for 6 years. After the first year, she told me her brother in San Francisco wanted to come visit and stay at our house. Ok, whats the problem? "He's gay" "So?" Her previous boyfriend didn't react to her brother very well. Anyway, her brother and his partner came out and stayed a week and we all had a great time. It got to be a twice a year thing. I never saw either of them lamenting about being gay, their lifestlye, or anything negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
That is like my wife's cousin. She has lived with her partner for years, but wouldn't bring Marg to any family events. Through an eventual thawing of her attitude (the cousin was afraid we wouldn't accept her partner, it wasn't us) Marg is now part of the family, and one of my favourite people. Society is learning....and sometimes the Gay's have to accept that we accepted them maybe more than they realized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
Only bisexuals :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
I'd like to thank you Mark, on behalf of the Gay's (sic).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
yea he put a additional handle in the "Scrum"Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I have lesbian cousin who is accepted by the family. She and her now wife got married on a beach in Scotland in August. We didn't go but that was only because they wanted a quiet wedding. It was so low key that the only people who saw it was themselves, the minister and their two witnesses. My cousin had male partners before she came out. She seems happy althogh I do tend to think that the new puppy they have recently purchased is a baby substitute of sorts. C'est la vie.
What happened in Copenhagen is purely political, namely due to China not wishing to be shackled in any way and finding a very convenient person to take the blame in Obama. It had nothing to do with science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
My suggestion that being gay is a result of maternal hormonal imbalances during particular periods of gestation (not genetic) is one that is born out by autopsy studies of gay males compared to heterosexual males and females, and studies of maternal hormone levels. The evidence behind that is quite a lot stronger than yours which appears to be merely anecdotal.
Re: AIDS, statistics show that over 90% of people who contract it are heterosexual. Based on that its a little difficult to claim its a gay disease isn't it?
The reason I find your suggestion that AIDS is a 'gay' disease offensive is that that kind of complacency among straight men makes them vulnerable as they don't take the same precaution. That is why most people who get AIDS now are straight. Ultimately that ignorance costs unnecessary lives. Pointless isn't it.
I defer to you on the Maternal hormonal imbalance theory but I would be curious to know what causes then that imbalance, and why a family could have 3 tough hetero kids and one gay one? Interesting.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
the most shocking thing about this post - They have beaches in Scotland?!!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by GridGirl
Observation in some, half, or most, combined with hypothesis does not constitute absolute fact or cause. It represents another potential branch of the tree. What would you like to go into next? The majority of homosexuals have brown eyes, therefore... give me a break. I am equally amazed that even one you absolutely refuses to believe that a human being could choose homosexuality simply because they like it. What is that based upon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
Go back to 1970 and see how many diagnosed mental disorders were accepted then and see how many are accepted now. Somebody figured out there is big money in making excuses for those that don't behave like the majority and "treating" them for their disorder(s).
As for AIDS, I think most would agree that it's intial introduction and spred was through the gay community. Any thinking person should have realized immediately how quickly it was going to spred into the addict community and then heterosexual community. If I somehow gave you the impression that I believe AIDS to be a strictly homosexual disease spred only by homosexuals then I will apologize for that although I don't recall being that specific.
But this is not about what Fiero thinks or believes, it is about what Uganda thinks and believes and although I haven't read any of it, I'd bet fousto's life that within the legislation AIDS and or HIV are mentioned.
Here's a suggestion, instead of busting my chops about what you think I believe, go have an informative chat with the Ugandan Ambassador nearest you and enlighten him as to the cause and effect of their problem.
Jesus wept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
If someone likes indulging in homosexual acts then they are gay!
The beaches in Scotland are some of the best in the world IMO. The climate however, is not!
yes about 300 miles of them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
Henners, Where I think Fiero is making his case is that it was through the great losses in the Gay community that we became more aware of AIDS. The Gay community IS more suceptable to the transmission of aids (gay males by "gay") because of the nature of the sexual contact. It is the most risky behaviour for this disease transmission UNLESS precautions are taken. Once THAT happens and did, the Gay community have this under control. They learned. Hetero's tend to be suceptable under the "it cant happen to me theory"...and we know how well THAT works.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I suspect Fiero's point is the Ugandans are just as likely having this draconian law to stop AIDS ( that is their theory, not mine), and when you consider the spread of AIDS in Africa, they are likely desparate to stop it. Too bad they are missing the greatest spread of it through Hetero populations, but that is to their discredit. Still doesn't change the fact they feel like they do, and it is their country.
Basically the structure of the brain is laid out early in the fetus' development, and the structure differs between males and females. The strongest factor by far in deciding the brain structure is the sex of the fetus, but it looks like there is some sensitivity to maternal hormones, if the levels are altered (ie higher than normal oestrogen for male fetus' and testosterone for female ones) then there is a chance the baby may go on to become gay. How can those hormone levels go askew? No idea I'm afraid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
This isn't the only factor of course, events during childhood and adolescence can also have a strong influence.
Of course people become gay because they like it, as far as I'm aware noone has been forced to become gay against their will (gay rape excepted of course). Equally, the fact that I like women makes me straight. That doesn't explain why gay people prefer same sex and straight people prefer the other. Saying that gay people are gay because they like it is a statement of the obvious, not an explanation for why they are gay and more importantly whether its a choice born of free will or whether they are wired that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
That last point is the most important one, if it is a choice born of free will and can be overridden by self-discipline, then a society that deems homosexuality to be offensive could be said to be in a reasonable position to punish it. If it is simply the way people are made then it is unreasonable to punish it for those particular societies.
That was indeed the impression you gave. No problem with your clarification though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
I wonder if a woman taking estrogen treatments for whatever reason gets pregnant and THAT cause's the issue, or is it for the most part a natural occurance? It must be natural for gays have been around for eons (Alexander the Great being one); but I do wonder if our constant monkeying around with the female homones for various medical reasons maybe has been a factor at times as well? Interesting stuff....I do know understanding this has made me more aware of gays in society and their rights but I still stand by the fact we have to be very careful to not oppress religious groups in this great rush to political correctness. There is a point where there is room for everyone's opinion, even if it is as seen as "wrong".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
I suspect the die is cast while the child is in the womb. Gays I have met have always known they were "different" and didn't understand why their urges didn't match what society told them, but they knew it was there, even before puberty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
You could be right, although a woman who produces her own oestrogen should not be getting supplements, only women who don't should be. You could also point the finger at many hormones used in, say, the food industry which are structurally similar to oestrogen although again there isn't a proven link. I was thinking more of unexplained surges in the mother's own oestrogen levels or testosterone levels in the case of lesbians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I always figured it was a genetic mutation that caused it, but I suppose this hormonal surge would do the trick.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
Since there are equal numbers of lesbians and gay males roughly, whatever causes it must be a constant in a sense. Or am I wrong on the numbers of lesbians and gays? I am getting out of my element here......just theorizing.
I thought that there were more lesbians. Or maybe I just have bad taste in women!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I heard that high testosterone levels in the womb can increase the chance of the child being a lesbian. Almost all of by lesbian friends have longer ring fingers than index fingers which is a sign of higher testosterone levels.
I think the causes are thought to be different in gay men. I think you are more likely to be gay if you have 2 or more older brothers. I have 2 older brothers and i'm the arguable more 'girly' than my older two. :erm:
That's just to be counteracted by my wife's 3 brothers. All three played hockey with the youngest being the most talented; not to mention he ran track, was a running back good enough to attract recruiters from universities, and he had about umpteen gazilliong women around him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Most gay males are not the youngest or oldest as a rule...the only thing they have in common is they are gay. One only has to look at Adam Lambert, the runner up in last season's American Idol. Oldest of 3 kids, only one gay, and he is physically quite tall. It is only his voice that gives him away...that and the makeup....which is part of the rock/pop persona. I would think it would be hard to use any stereotype of gay behaviour to decide anything, and where they are born in the pecking order of siblings likely isn't much either.
As for you meeting more Lesbians....maybe it is just you are attracted to em? Just saying...lol..
I could say something really bad right now, but I don't want to be banned...lol...
Here is an interesting film on the nature versus nurture argument.
[youtube]l6P1Gzo1Xbo&feature=related[/youtube]
I must say i really donīt care that much. Do what you want, as long as you do not hurt another person. Itīs nothing more to it than that. Anmd if gay people wants to get married. Fine with me. Its a thing between them and the god they have chosen as theirs.
I am not sure abt the adoption yet, but I guess many straight parents can be the parents from hell asweel, and I guess most criminals were broght up by straight parents.
My five thousands dollars...
I have always been of the theory it is nature, not nurture, and Barrowman's visit with the two 12 year old twins in the video pretty much confirms it. One kid a typical boy with macho leanings, and the other kid pretty much trying to be a girl, yet identical physically to his brother. Puts a curveball into Dylan's post on this being hormonal. Both kids should be the same really you would think.
Mom not being very "girly" also puts the nurture and child's enviroment out the window, which I am not surprised by. I know of a couple who eschwed a lot of the typical ways to raise kids, using words insteand of confrontation, not being really into sports, yet their kids are all jocks and the boys are all macho while the sister is a girly girl into ballet. Kids will be what they are sometimes, despite nurture.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8429699.stm
interesting support for the rights of the Ugandan gay community from the Anglican Church
and a story from 2003 - this is not a new problem, i'm kind of ashmaed that i knew so little about it until now
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/3216229.stm