Bouffier with Citroën DS3 R3T in Ulster Rally ;)
http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=12072
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Bouffier with Citroën DS3 R3T in Ulster Rally ;)
http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=12072
I have one question though... If WRC will be based on current groupN and S2000 cars then what will PWRC and JWRC have? Bicycles? Isn't the whole point of WRC to be rally at its highest level (considering both cars and drivers). Something that group B used to be where drivers demanded less power as it was too scary to drive with 500+hp. That really showed what the guys were made of. Currently drivers like Wilslow manage to nurse the car home and get Championship Points. He would wet his pants if he had to do Ouninpohja with a groupB rally car.
There does not need to be any PWRC or JWRC that no one cares about.
No one outside of rallying know about these categories.
WRC will just become R1, R2, R3, R4 rally cars.
Well this is what I am trying to say... there is no point for such classes as R1, R2 and even R3 to exist in WRC. The guys that drive a Twingo R1 should run national or regional championships. Whats the point of a cheap car if it costs you a fortune to drag it to WRC events.
And no one cares because there is not much to watch in WRC. I consider myself to be a mediocre rally fan. I run a fan club for one of the local drivers. But I do not find anything spectacular about going to a WRC event these days. If I want to see group N or S2000 cars I can see plenty at Estonian national championships. What I would like to see is something special when I go watch a World Championship event. Just like Formula1. I could watch guys compete with Formula Renault in the national championship and it is great fun, but F1 is something spectacular. Yes, there are few amazing drivers currently in WRC and I still aim to watch as many different rallies as possible. But If the worlds best drivers drive cars that are not entertaining to watch there is no way that the audience numbers would rise.
I totally disagree. Look at IRC: local drivers can compete with top drivers in their home event. With your system (which is almost the current in WRC) only rich boys can take their chance to compete in WRC. Still complaining there is so less competition in WRC?Quote:
Originally Posted by johunn
Dani Sordo + DS3 R3T = very spectacular for 2WD :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyfARyHvcsU
Audi S3Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
First there is no interest from VW Group to enter Audi to rally and than Audi S3 is too simple 4x4 for rally use. It uses Haldex viscous clutch which is too cheap solution. VW group doesn't have any better 4x4 stock system for cars with transversal engine (everything small enough).
Lets wait till the official news come out from the FIA. Rallying could even move to just 2WD.
Who knows?
Hi ProRally.Quote:
Originally Posted by ProRally
Do you have any update on R4 cars now?
Spoke to several people including FIA, there is progress albeit slow progress, will be hard to get everything confirmed and rules written and accepted before next season.Quote:
Originally Posted by navtheace
More in 2 weeks in Germany. But R4 is still very much a live....
Next World Council meeting is 10 September so not so much time left. :D
What is the spec of that R2 Fabia?
As in engine size, and no turbo I take it? as in 1.6 no turbo means R2, 1.6 turbo would put it to R3 class?
Yes, this one has 1.6 naturally aspirated engine, FWD, 5-speed seqential gearbox and Reiger suspension. It was developed by Impromat Motorsport and Škoda only provides homologation.
Excellent stuff. Is there a road car Fabia with 1.6 petrol engine?
So basically anyone can buy the 1.6 road car and self make the R2 car yes?
If the car is used in any FIA competition, it must have a homologation which can be provided only by manufacturer (who developed the car doesn't matter). In this particular case the base model with 1.6 engine is now on sale in Russia. That is also a reason why the premiere was delayed by few months because this model isn't sold anywhere else.
If the FIA can make the world rally championship just R1, R2, R3, R4
this will be what the sport needs as anyone will be able to self build their rally cars. ie like the Fabia, Clio, Evo, Impreza, Civic etcetc.
We have to wait till September if the FIA can announce the cancelling of S2000 after 2011.
The Renault Twingo R2 is impressing in the UK, being a new car.
Has it been tested against other R2s, if so how did it perform ?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
Prices for kit or car ?
[quote="navtheace"]
IF FIA cancel S2000 in Sept, does that mean they cancel the 1.6T S2000 based WRC car as well? If so I guess David Richards / Prodrive BMW Mini wont be too pleased, neither should Citroen and Ford. Also these whispers about R4 might be de-stabilising to VW and Toyota.
After GpB was cancelled after 1986. It was amazing how quickly manufacturers adjusted to GpA rules.
Very good point!Quote:
Originally Posted by navtheace
Maybe R4 is a mix of S2000, Gr N, WRC ?
Only s2000 and N4 looks more real.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaCo
I'm amazed with all this fuss around a possible R4 class and its purpose to replace WRC1.6T...Quote:
Originally Posted by navtheace
Let's be clear: in order to homologate a R4 car a manufactureur must produce 2.500 street cars, and has we've seen in N4, no other manu besides Mitusbishi and Subaru wants to exercice that kind of obligation.
After Ralliart closedown most probably only Subaru would cope with it!
(That wont be an isolated case as R1 also has a unique model range: the Renault Twingo!).
So, R4 just make sence to boost N4 cars, giving them more competitive parts (like sequencial gearboxes) not allowed under Gr. N rules.
In no way R4 can be seen as a WRC1.6T alternative.
And there's no need to wait till september to know that S2000 new homologations will be banned from 2011: that's already decidided.
It was also told that WRC1.6T cars will be allowed in every FIA championships (WRC, IRC, and Regional Series) and in national champs where allowed by local NSAs.
Only issue to be clarified is the possibility of pre-2011 homologated S2000 cars to receive a re-homologation with a 1.6T engine, in order to be competitive after 2010, even if not allowed at WRC rallys (an unexpected rule maybe linked with a hipotetic boycott from IRC towards WRC1.6T cars?).
IMO also R4 is just upgrades to N4 to get them more competitive against S2000 cars, not replacing 1.6T WRC cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
http://ralliart.com/10topics/100310.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
By this press release I understand that Mitsubishi will take over some of the activities of Ralliart and Mitsubishi will continue in group N.
Any updates on the R classes?
Or is the FIA meeting in September where all will be revealed about R4?
Both Subaru and Mitsubishi is talking to FIA about it, hope to hear more this weekend in WRC GermanyQuote:
Originally Posted by OldF
As a bit of a side discussion, how does the Evo 10 compare to the newest Impreza GpN for performance?
As the Evo 10 was a bit down on performance when it first came about with many sticking with the Evo 9.
Evo X has by far strongest engine of all Gr.N cars but is also too heavy. That is it's main problem. I think that it's almost 100 kg heavier than Impreza or Evo IX.
Armindo Araújo said that is car is now with less 100kg than before
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICARDO75
Is that from weight saving or Mitsubishi supplying an RS base car that has been lightened?
How did the Impreza's with 33mm restrictors perform on tarmac?
So, is there any news from Germany rally on the proposed R4 regs?
FIA is really keen on doing it and there is a extraordinary World Council Meeting on 8 September. They are going to try to squeeze it in but the fear is that 'normally' things like this goes via working groups.... but as I said to them if there is enough will to get it through it might happen, their (FIA) answer was that they are not sure about the 'other' manufactures (who have S2000 now) might not be so keen.... more in 2 weeks time just before WRC Japan
In Greece first grN evo X we measured in same corner weight scales same time with same fuel and both in gravel spec was 65kg heavier.But this depends from a lot of other reasons ie which fuel tank,which make roll cage,which make tyres/rims,underbody guards for both cars? etc if you want to have a very accurate measure of weight between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
In some months we are going to have ours evo X ready for first hand informations.
First impressions from engine without the finally program in ecu it is very good against ours evo 9 cars.Better torque by far,better horsepower and bigger powerband against evo 9 with same (33mm) restrictor.
Thanks, Dimviii ;)
I had a chat with a friend from Kresta Racing. They're now building Evo X for Jiri Tosovsky. He told me that they are able to get close to Evo IX weight but the car is very expensive. They have lightweight 15CDV6 rollcage from Heggemann.
Talking about expensive cars, there was a story in a magazine where they followed the whole process building a N group car from a road car. The price of this car was 169740 € (excluding taxes).
did this price includes the work hours? and how much are they?
You can check the prices straight from TMR homepage: http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
I remember that article also, the car must have had "all you want", because normal TMR top spec STi costs below 140 000.
It was the final price of the car ready for delivery. For some phases the hours was there. I can look them up later, just watching a movie from telly.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
These prices are very high for a grN
TMR is very expensive,even with ''catalogue prices''
Evos are much more cheaper,specially when you know where from to ''collect'' parts.
An other point is which parts you buy.Ie if you want to buy a suspension with tmr ''settings'' you are going to pay a lot.(useless imho as you always have to adjust different from rally to rally,even in different ss some times)
You can buy a rieger/ohlins with much less money if you(and your driver) can adjust the right settings.
From personally experience almost nobody pays catalogue prices when you buy a lot of $$.
An other point is that some parts doesn t make the car faster but better in some conditions(ie heated screen/high voltage alternator etc) Depends where you want to use your car.
Another point is the cost of work hours.Too much difference between countries/garages without the most expensive beeing and better.
Some examples...
ralliart (can t say from which country) wants 7000 euros for a groupN engine.Ours with fully rebuild/balanced/blue printed costed no more than 3000 euros with all parts new.
Another ralliart wants 2300 euros for an exaust.
You can buy a lighter one with wrc metal catalyzater with half money.
Brembo brakes are 9000 euros on catalogue while we bought them for less than 6000 euros brand new.
There are examples almost for every part i can see on catalogues i read about evos.
A more realistic cost with a brand new car must be about 110000 euros for an evo 9.
The excellent thing is that there is choice. People can build a GpN car for less than Euro 100K and then you can go right to the top end price as mentioned above. It's all choice on how much you want to yourself for parts sourcing, if you can get your own GpN mechanics to do some of the build, or if you want to just pay for a completed car and to what spec.
This is better than how it was with world rally cars in that people woud pay the over inflated price asked by M Sport and Prodrive with no real choice to do things to ones own spec.
If R4 goes ahead, more motorsport companies will get involved and bring about lots of choice and competition on pricing and specs etcetc. All good for the paying customer.
Coming to R3 turbo rally cars - 1.6 turbo Front Wheel Drive. Is the rule 29mm restrictor?