Renault get a 2 year suspended ban

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Meanwhile, as far as the world is concerned, Renault will be competing as normal this weekend.

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But doesn't that reflect the fact that this sorry business won't actually cause any measurable damage to F1?

don't really think Flav will really give a s**t, he's never been bothered by the racing, just the business, and he's no worries about needing a living from F1.

the 2 yr suspended ban is little more than a slap on the wrist, i think this shows that the FIA are keen for Renault to stay and Renault have indicated the same to the FIA - if they'd chosen to take last years points and prize money they could have ended up with effectively a £50m fine, i don't think Renault would have hung around in that case.

i think it stinks that Piquet gets out of this with no sanction - the guy was arguuably going to be out of a job last year yet managed to crash his way into a new contract wirth in excess of £1m for thus year, for which he is still being paid despite being dropped. so he's has a net increase of earnings of £1m for being part of the scheme, yet is still a free agent - albit i can't imagine any team in F1 touching him with a barge pole, he could arguably go and make his money in another series elsewhere (IRL, DTM, NASCAR?)

where is the consistency in decision making...Mclaren got a hefty fine with they spygate conspiracy and Renault get let off with a rap on the knuckles :?:

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Originally Posted by harsha

where is the consistency in decision making...Mclaren got a hefty fine with they spygate conspiracy and Renault get let off with a rap on the knuckles :?:

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It's been filed along with hens teeth and rocking horse poo. ;)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

But doesn't that reflect the fact that this sorry business won't actually cause any measurable damage to F1?

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Given the (non-motorsport) press coverage this has been getting I do think those reading it may wonder why a team found guilty in this way will be racing next weekend.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I don't think so. The FIA, again, has focused on individuals at the expense of the sport.

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Excuse me?! What expense of the sport?
It would have been at the expense of the sport if Renault were to be thrown out because of one scumbags dirty dealings.

You're again trying to pin everything on the FIA when the fault lies with that bloody cheater Flab.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Quite, so was this a subliminal 'favour' to Ferrari?

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Just leave Ferrari out of it.

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Originally Posted by Mark

So in that case they had better all get out of their contracts before the weekend or face exclusion from the Singapore GP?!

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Their superlicenses are not up, they just won't be renewed for next season if they do not severe any ties with Flav.

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

At the moment Briatore manages Fernando Alonso, Mark Webber, Heikki Kovalainen, Romain Grosjean in F1.

Piquet

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I don't think that Flav manages Alonso since he left for McLaren at the end of 2006.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Given the (non-motorsport) press coverage this has been getting I do think those reading it may wonder why a team found guilty in this way will be racing next weekend.

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I doubt that many will truly care. It's not even the biggest sport-related story on the BBC News front page today - Bobby Robson's memorial service is.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I can't help but think that if this was a small team like Force India involved in all this, the punishment would have been alot more harsh. It would have been a ban for sure, but with the threat of losing a major car manufacturer and the supply of engines to other teams, the FIA have chosen the lighter option. Not exactly living up to the hype and threats Mr Mosley put out to the press in recent days. Flavio took the brunt of the flack, but at his age and with his wealth, I'm sure he's got enough out of F1 not to worry too much.

It feels like abit of an anti climax to be honest... :(

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I bet if they banned Renault from F1 you would be equally unhappy. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by henners88

I seem to remember you having quite a different view when that someone was Mike Coughlan ;)

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How many people were involved in that case and how many in this one?
How did Renault react? and how did McLaren react?

Just a couple questions for you! ;)

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Originally Posted by harsha

where is the consistency in decision making...Mclaren got a hefty fine with they spygate conspiracy and Renault get let off with a rap on the knuckles :?:

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McLaren denied their wrongdoings for half a year and accused evreyone else but themselves.
Renault did their internal investigation, got rid of the scumbags and pleaded guilty.

Just a couple of the details that escaped to your thorough analysis! ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

How many people were involved in that case and how many in this one?
How did Renault react? and how did McLaren react?

Just a couple questions for you! ;)

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How they reacted has nothing at all to do with it. Nor, in reality - nor indeed law - does the number of people involved. The fact that you have made up your mind that one offence is worse than the other does not render that fact.

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Originally Posted by ioan

McLaren denied their wrongdoings for half a year and accused evreyone else but themselves.
Renault did their internal investigation, got rid of the scumbags and pleaded guilty.

Just a couple of the details that escaped to your analysis! ;)

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ioan, the addition of a ;) to posts like that one really doesn't come across well. In fact, it's downright rude.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Given the (non-motorsport) press coverage this has been getting I do think those reading it may wonder why a team found guilty in this way will be racing next weekend.

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For the very same reason a team found guilty of cheating during 2007 went racing the next week end after the WMSC hearing.

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Originally Posted by ioan

For the very same reason a team found guilty of cheating during 2007 went racing the next week end after the WMSC hearing.

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That is a very reasonable point. Again, the actual damage done to F1 has been zero. How many sponsors have actually been put off by either case? And I suspect that most non-enthusiasts think there's a bit of a whiff of corruption, greed, etc around the sport anyway, by its very nature.

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Originally Posted by ioan

How many people were involved in that case and how many in this one?
How did Renault react? and how did McLaren react?

Just a couple questions for you! ;)

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It's a fair point. McLaren did everything to hide what had happened whereas Renno threw Flav an Pat out ASAP when they learnt the truth. You can't help but feel that McLaren could have escaped such a harsh penalty had they just said '**** a couple of rogue employees were up to something but we've got rid of them and yes they did do this and that etc etc'. Renault acted as best as could have been expected after they heard about the allegations whereas McLaren didn't. Renault have a permanent ban hanging over them now, let's not forget that.....

So with tongue firmly in cheek, any team can commit a serious offence, and get a suspended sentence, as the FiA/Bernie are desperate to keep as many Manufacturers/Teams as possible.......


.....something isn't right!!

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Originally Posted by Daniel

It's a fair point. McLaren did everything to hide what had happened whereas Renno threw Flav an Pat out ASAP when they learnt the truth. You can't help but feel that McLaren could have escaped such a harsh penalty had they just said '**** a couple of rogue employees were up to something but we've got rid of them and yes they did do this and that etc etc'. Renault acted as best as could have been expected after they heard about the allegations whereas McLaren didn't. Renault have a permanent ban hanging over them now, let's not forget that.....

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Exactly. The difference in the approach the two teams took is enormous and the result is well deserved.

PS: before I get accused of fanboyism I'd like to point it out that I'm not a fan of either teams.

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

So with tongue firmly in cheek, any team can commit a serious offence, and get a suspended sentence, as the FiA/Bernie are desperate to keep as many Manufacturers/Teams as possible.......


.....something isn't right!!

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That's the wrong way to look at it.
Just think that in either case (McLaren or Renault) hundreds of people would lose their jobs if the team is thrown out of the sport.

PS: I'm a bit surprised how many people would have wanted Renault to be thrown out of F1 even though McLaren were excused for a big offense 2 years ago.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Exactly. The difference in the approach the two teams took is enormous and the result is well deserved.

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In truth, there is no comparison that can be made between the two, not morally and certainly not 'legally'. The only fair thing is for both cases to be judged individually; no precedents were set by the McLaren case that were in any way relevant to the Renault one.

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Originally Posted by henners88

First question: Nobody knows for sure how many were involved with this incident. Renault delivered a damage limitation plea.

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You mean everyone in the Renault team was aware about Flav and Pat ordering Jr. to crash?
Maybe they did hold a referendum just before teh race to see if everyone agrees?

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Originally Posted by henners88

Second question: Mclaren reported the spying incident to the FIA, Piquet reported the Renault incident.

;) ;) ;)

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Wrong answer. A copy shop worker reported the spying incident to Ferrari who reported it to the FIA.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Wasn't Mike Coughlan released with immediate effect back in 2007 for his role in the spying saga?

Under that basis why on earth did everyone scream scapegoat when Dave Ryan was sacked??

Struggling here, help me out...

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IIRC Coughlan was put on administrative leave or something like that.

Renno fired their team boss - McLaren simply put someone who was obviously involved in shady doings on 'administrative leave'

As for the Dave Ryan thing that was very much a facepalm incident and I don't know why anyone got fired for that. Comically stupid little incident and tbh I don't think it's comparable to either of the other incidents. It was a cockup., nothing more nothing less.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Wasn't Mike Coughlan released with immediate effect back in 2007 for his role in the spying saga?

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No, he wasn't.

McLaren carried out their own internal investigation and decided there was nothing fishy.
They later suspended Coughlan but he was not fired until a few months later when it was obvious for everyone that McLaren made used of the Ferrari data.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

IIRC Coughlan was put on administrative leave or something like that.

Renno fired their team boss - McLaren simply put someone who was obviously involved in shady doings on 'administrative leave'

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It's all very well for us to say 'obviously involved' now, but there are issues of employment law to be considered here. In this respect, there are probably further differences between the two cases. As I said, drawing comparisons, whether moral, legal or factual, between them is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Excuse me?! What expense of the sport?
It would have been at the expense of the sport if Renault were to be thrown out because of one scumbags dirty dealings.

You're again trying to pin everything on the FIA when the fault lies with that bloody cheater Flab.

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Yes, I am critical of the FIA, or rather Max's stewardship of the FIA, because I don't think the issue of cheating has been dealt with. Renault - the team - were charged by the FIA and found guilty of the charges brought against them. Effectively their penalty is to be told "don't do it again." This from the WMSC that described Renault's breach of the rules as being of "unparalleled severity".

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I doubt that many will truly care. It's not even the biggest sport-related story on the BBC News front page today - Bobby Robson's memorial service is.

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Well it is the headline story on http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/ at the moment, but I guess you're right. Attention will focus elsewhere very soon.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

It's all very well for us to say 'obviously involved' now, but there are issues of employment law to be considered here. In this respect, there are probably further differences between the two cases. As I said, drawing comparisons, whether moral, legal or factual, between them is irrelevant.

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Fair point. But then again I'm sure Coughlan coughed up to being in possession of the Ferrari docs so his involvement was most likely known about. Of course I'm speculating but it's not impossible that McLaren merely wanted to be seen to be doing the bare minimum that needed to be done whilst not doing anything which was a clear admission of guilt.

2 years later people still think McLaren did nothing wrong yet no one will ever doubt that Flabio was guilty.

I think this sends a clear message, do something wrong and you'll be punished - try to cover it up and we'll rip your nuts off.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

2 years later people still think McLaren did nothing wrong yet no one will ever doubt that Flabio was guilty.

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I don't know why but I'm not surprised. ;)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I think this sends a clear message, do something wrong and you'll be punished - try to cover it up and we'll rip your nuts off.

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Sums it up perfectly.

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Originally Posted by ioan

For the very same reason a team found guilty of cheating during 2007 went racing the next week end after the WMSC hearing.

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Yup. McLaren and Renault (twice) have been found guilty by the WMSC of the charges brought against them and have continued racing. BAR-Honda, on the other hand, were banned for 2 races for having an illegal fuel tank.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I don't know why but I'm not surprised. ;)

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:)

It's one of the things which annoys me most on this forum. IIRC SGWilko was very vocal in his defence of McLaren before the hearing and as soon as it came out that the allegations were true he (quite rightly) changed his tune and realised that what had happened was serious and you have to respect him for that. Others however simply don't want to go back on what they said or are too stupid to understand what went on and if it were up to me these sorts of people would be banned from this forum.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Yup. McLaren, Renault (twice) have been found guilty by the WMSC of the charges brought against them and have continued racing. BAR-Honda, on the other hand, were banned for 2 races for having an illegal fuel tank.

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and Citroen got a 1 minute penalty in Rally Australia for running unhomologated anti-rollbar links :p

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Others however simply don't want to go back on what they said or are too stupid to understand what went on and if it were up to me these sorts of people would be banned from this forum.

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I wouldn't ban them, they are funny in their attempts to twist reality to suit their POV. ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

I wouldn't ban them, they are funny in their attempts to twist reality to suit their POV. ;)

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Nah, I'd ban them. There are certain things which are up for debate and there are always different POV's and different slants on what is going on but there are some things which are simply not up for discussion or debate.

After reading all the comparison between McLaren's spy-gate and Renault's crash-gate, it was definitely alot easier for Renault to plead gulity. Renault are not winning anything right now or back then (OK, one race for that matter) and are already filled with rumors of pulling out of the sports, so being kicked out of F1 won't hurt as much. On the other hand, McLaren was fighting for the title in 2007 and unlike Renault, their main source of business is racing so they had everything to defend themselves. All factors in addition to F1 world's concern of losing another manufacturer have worked nicely for Renault today.

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Originally Posted by koko0703

After reading all the comparison between McLaren's spy-gate and Renault's crash-gate, it was definitely alot easier for Renault to plead gulity. Renault are not winning anything right now or back then (OK, one race for that matter) and are already filled with rumors of pulling out of the sports, so being kicked out of F1 won't hurt as much. On the other hand, McLaren was fighting for the title in 2007 and unlike Renault, their main source of business is racing so they had everything to defend themselves. All factors in addition to F1 world's concern of losing another manufacturer have worked nicely for Renault today.

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Life is always about circumstances and how you control them and put them to your use.
Renault are clearly a much smarter bunch than the McLaren bunch back in 2007. They weighed the situation properly and knew exactly how to act without dragging the company name through the mud for months.

IMO this case only highlights how stupidly Ron Dennis acted 2 years ago and how his big ego cost the team 100 millions and lot of lost image and probably will cost them their partnership with Mercedes after 2011.

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Originally Posted by ioan

They weighed the situation properly and knew exactly how to act...

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When there were rumours of a "fix" immediately after the race did they act then? When Piquet (allegedly) spoke to Charlie Whiting at the Brazilian GP last year did they act then? When Piquet made his formal statement to the FIA did they act then? Or did they act days before they were due to appear before the WMSC?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

:)

It's one of the things which annoys me most on this forum. IIRC SGWilko was very vocal in his defence of McLaren before the hearing and as soon as it came out that the allegations were true he (quite rightly) changed his tune and realised that what had happened was serious and you have to respect him for that. Others however simply don't want to go back on what they said or are too stupid to understand what went on and if it were up to me these sorts of people would be banned from this forum.

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Oh blast - now I'm infamous.... :laugh:

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Originally Posted by ioan

I wouldn't ban them, they are funny in their attempts to twist reality to suit their POV. ;)

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:laugh: Sorry I'm laughing my head off here and everyone is coming over to my desk!! If I spot you being biased ioan and twisting things, I'll let you know mate ok. ;)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Nah, I'd ban them. There are certain things which are up for debate and there are always different POV's and different slants on what is going on but there are some things which are simply not up for discussion or debate.

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No offence to you Daniel, but its not just the Mclaren fans on here that twist circumstances. It seems for certain individuals that its all about the team in question rather than having a point of view. One person I can think of had 3 very strong opinions about defending on track and said in one instance:

"If the only way he can pass is by bullying others of the track with very dangerous moves, than he better go to a destruction derby, and take DC with him too."....

Then forgot this stance, and posted this:

"Everyone is entitled to one defensive move, thats already very limiting when you think that they should be racing and not inviting each other to go by. I'd take a driver like Vettel anyday over a pussy like Kovalainen"...

Now if this is not twisting facts to suit a POV, then I don't know what is..

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

When there were rumours of a "fix" immediately after the race did they act then? When Piquet (allegedly) spoke to Charlie Whiting at the Brazilian GP last year did they act then? When Piquet made his formal statement to the FIA did they act then? Or did they act days before they were due to appear before the WMSC?

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Sssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!