USA is Toast

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Originally Posted by fousto

So you are saying that you condone attacks on anyone who is not a native of the country. Say England has a squad in Italy then you would say it is fine for the terrorists to attack.

You are probably part of the world problem along with EKI.

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When there were German troops in France and Norway, the local resistance (or you may call them terrorists) thought it was fine to attack them.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

What bothers me with several of the posts and posters in this thread is the wholesale commendtion of the Muslim, or Moslem faith.
The vast majority are regular people.
There certainly are the extremist Islamics, but they are a minority.
We also have extremist Christians, the wack jobs in Ireland just been two sects. I mean both the Catholic and Protestant extremists.
In the meantime Eki is being his usual asinine self.

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I agree with you.

Also, Christians have committed far more despicable acts than Muslims throughout history. FACT, yet we dont see them being lambasted the way the Muslims do. WHY :?:

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I agree with you.

Also, Christians have committed far more despicable acts than Muslims throughout history. FACT, yet we dont see them being lambasted the way the Muslims do. WHY :?:

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Look up Bosnia.

Off goes Eki with his usual comments that are totally immaterial and have nothing to do with this topic. Attacking occupying troops who have invaded your country is not terrorism, except maybe in a twisted mind.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

Off goes Eki with his usual comments that are totally immaterial and have nothing to do with this topic. Attacking occupying troops who have invaded your country is not terrorism, except maybe in a twisted mind.

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So those attacks on foreign troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are not terrorism either, because they have been against occupying troops?

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Originally Posted by GridGirl

I dont for one second condone terrorism in any way shape or form as I pointed out in my original post. As someone who is not from the US I think the attitudes of some of the American forumers toward people of the Muslim faith is to me appauling. Again to back up what Easy Drifter said, the majority of people from the Muslim faith are just regular normal people. Its is only the extremely tiny minority that are terrorists. I fail to see how you can condem milions of people for just something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population.

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You really need a new calculator !!!!!

You can start here in fixing your calculator

http://www.danielpipes.org/2489/what...hools-teaching

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Originally Posted by GridGirl

I dont for one second condone terrorism in any way shape or form as I pointed out in my original post. As someone who is not from the US I think the attitudes of some of the American forumers toward people of the Muslim faith is to me appauling. Again to back up what Easy Drifter said, the majority of people from the Muslim faith are just regular normal people. Its is only the extremely tiny minority that are terrorists. I fail to see how you can condem milions of people for just something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population.

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There are threads with anti American sentiment quite often on this forum, but not all Americans blame all of the forum or the countries they represent. A small minority of people from every culture set an example that could be taken as the sentiments of that entire culture.

Ok lets do some math guessing!!!!

There are approx 1.4 billion muslims in the world - Not even considering the extremists - what percent of them do you think would be happy to see your head laying on the ground if you are a white male let alone a christian. I am guessing at least 25%. So put that in Grid Girls calculator and it will blow her hand off!!

We need to get real - Get rid of your ostrich!!

I think all three calculators currently in my possession (now that is sad) are working correctly. Personally I think that 350,000,000,000 people really do have better things to be thinking about than your head on a block. Your not that special. :p

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Originally Posted by fousto

I am guessing at least 25%.

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Exactly. You're guessing. Apparently your guess is not based on any solid facts and reality.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Exactly. You're guessing. Apparently your guess is not based on any solid facts and reality.

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Well said :up:

I have many Muslim friends and customers and all are modest, nice people. They are generally tight with money, otherwise they are decent hard working citizens who I get along well with and dont fear. For some reasons, the Western World fears everyhing around them that is not like them. Why :?:

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Look up Bosnia.

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Why :?:

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Originally Posted by GridGirl

I dont for one second condone terrorism in any way shape or form as I pointed out in my original post. As someone who is not from the US I think the attitudes of some of the American forumers toward people of the Muslim faith is to me appauling. Again to back up what Easy Drifter said, the majority of people from the Muslim faith are just regular normal people. Its is only the extremely tiny minority that are terrorists. I fail to see how you can condem milions of people for just something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population.

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If you think only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population supported the 9/11 attacks and the continuing terrorist attacks, you are so deluded it is not even funny.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I agree with you.

Also, Christians have committed far more despicable acts than Muslims throughout history. FACT, yet we dont see them being lambasted the way the Muslims do. WHY :?:

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Because christians have advanced forward, whereas many muslims are still doing those vile things in the name of their religion.

That said, all religions are bullcrap and the world would be a far better place if there were not so many idiots believing in "god"

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Why :?:

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Because in the Bosnian conflict the Christians were "the bad guys". While it might not rise to the levels that some spout off about with Muslims, it does show that most of the Western world will come to the aid of Muslims against "bad" Christians.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Exactly. You're guessing. Apparently your guess is not based on any solid facts and reality.

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Exactly which forms the basis for a huge monetary bet. You take Grid Girls number and I will take mine and whoever is closest to the fact wins.

Ready??????

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Because christians have advanced forward,

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Not everyone.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Because christians have advanced forward, whereas many muslims are still doing those vile things in the name of their religion.

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Gary when you say we are more advanced does that include these Muslims having philosophical
(or call them religious if you want) objections to the west forcing Cell phone technology
to facilitate their adolescent offspring for sexting at their leisure while laying in bed when their parents expect them to be settled in for a night of sleep?

This is a sad thread. Really is. FIrst off, no majority of Muslims wants to do harm to USA or Christianity. That said, no majority of Christians wants to do harm to Muslims in general. That said, there is a sizeable minority in both that do want to stir up hatred. The large difference is tho that in the Muslim world, there is no real free speech or free thought for the most part. It is limited, and corrupt leaders are using Islam to control and co-erce hatred that suits their purposes. IT is why you see suicide bombers who are 16 year old kids dying for Islam while the "leaders" sit with Swiss bank accounts taking western guilt money. ( Hello Mrs. Arafat, your husband has a lot of money here) .

The west is not guilt free, but we based our democracies on freedom of assembly, and freedom of speech. As per usual Fousto, you overeact but I suspect you do this just to wind people up.

Let them meet, the same way the Nazi's in Skokie Ill. met and faded away. I am sure the FBI has people inside keeping tabs on things.

You stomp out free speech, you might as well dictate how we think.

I would rather argue with Eki or Fousto than have someone take them or I out and muzzle us. Fortunately, I get that, I don't know if Eki or Fousto quite get that.....

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Originally Posted by Eki

Not everyone.

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A LARGE Majority Eki and you know have gotten past it. We live in mainly secular societies with freedom of Religion. The Muslim world is far more restrictive on freedom of speech and thought. The whole point of this thread is Fousto is advocating we do what they do over there. Most Christians are smarter than that...although you fail as usual to want to acknowledge that.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

If you think only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population supported the 9/11 attacks and the continuing terrorist attacks, you are so deluded it is not even funny.



Because christians have advanced forward, whereas many muslims are still doing those vile things in the name of their religion.

That said, all religions are bullcrap and the world would be a far better place if there were not so many idiots believing in "god"

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Walker...there is no problem with people having faith in the concept of God. Being kept to a higher standard isn't a bad thing. Hitler believed in his own religion, mainly Nazism ( he was a Catholic by birth, not by anything he did)and we don't have to point out the millions that the godless communists killed in Russia and China. Mao and Stalin didn't believe in God either.

The only way religion is dangerous is when people believe that putting down or oppressing or eliminating another group in the NAME of God. Muslim terrorists blowing up Jews. Christian radicials in the former Yugoslavia killing Bosnian Muslims.

No...being accountable for your sins in this life by the prospect of heaven or hell is what has kept a lot of people out of decending into barbarism.....

Gee, just listen to you all, will ya?
All above sound all pat, and then you run that Guatanamo thingy. No wonder every civilized country laugh behind your back.
US of A, the brat of Terra.

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Originally Posted by ErkMa

Gee, just listen to you all, will ya?
All above sound all pat, and then you run that Guatanamo thingy. No wonder every civilized country laugh behind your back.
US of A, the brat of Terra.

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Well if you would take all these f___ks we would probably close it !! Cmon step up !!

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Originally Posted by ErkMa

Gee, just listen to you all, will ya?
All above sound all pat, and then you run that Guatanamo thingy. No wonder every civilized country laugh behind your back.
US of A, the brat of Terra.

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Yes...the civilized thing would have been to kill those mooks on the battlefield and no one would have been the wiser. Silly Americans, actually thinking that putting out of uniform combatants in an POW situation would actually be of benefit to them?

An Uncivilized hostile war criminal state wouldn't have taken any prisoners.....

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

An Uncivilized hostile war criminal state wouldn't have taken any prisoners.....

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Can you name some hostile war criminal state who hadn't take any prisoners then?

I'm quite sure the USA doesn't keep Guantanamo Bay for just humane reasons but to extract information from the prisoners. Haven't the defenders of waterboarding and other torture defended their actions saying it could save some American lives?

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Originally Posted by Eki

Can you name some hostile war criminal state who hadn't take any prisoners then?

I'm quite sure the USA doesn't keep Guantanamo Bay for just humane reasons but to extract information from the prisoners. Haven't the defenders of waterboarding and other torture defended their actions saying it could save some American lives?

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They may want the information, but considering waterboarding is done as part of US military training, I would hardly put that form of torture in the same class as beating people to a pulp and hooking car batteries up to their gonads. Your friend Saddam Hussein had no issues with that but I remember your valient defense of his regime when the US invaded.

Is Waterboarding morally correct when you are trying to stop terrorist attacks against your homeland? Depends on whether I guess your family will die or not. I don't like the US waterboarding anyone in Gitmo, but the US soldiers that the Taliban and Al Quaida have taken have suffered FAR worse and have at times ended up beheaded or dead. I find it annoying you always IGNORE those crimes against humanity.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I find it annoying you always IGNORE those crimes against humanity.

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They aren't carried out by an organized government who claims to be modern, humane, democratic and all other good stuff. If you're evil, just be honest about it, and it wont be as annoying.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

They may want the information, but considering waterboarding is done as part of US military training,

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"As part of US military training"? How about doing it to US civilians as part of their every day life? When I was in the army, we had 50 km ski marches, over 100 km bike marches and sometimes we had just 2 or 3 hours sleep a night. I found it quite unpleasant, like I think many civilians would.

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Originally Posted by Eki

They aren't carried out by an organized government who claims to be modern, humane, democratic and all other good stuff. If you're evil, just be honest about it, and it wont be as annoying.

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So if you are a dictator and you admit to being one, that makes it alright? Some logic there, even for you.

No...the US SHOULDN'T be doing waterboarding, but unlike many of their enemies, there is a robust debate in the US about the merits and pitfalls of it, and waterboarding has no physical long term effects, and considering the paranoia in the wake of 9/11, it is at least understandable, if not still wrong. I guess your standard you are holding the Americans to is fine but again, when I see you start threads bemoaning the torture of American solidiers and civilians, I will take your comment with a little more validity. Unlike you, my agenda isn't ignoring all of what is going on.

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Originally Posted by Eki

"As part of US military training"? How about doing it to US civilians as part of their every day life? When I was in the army, we had 50 km ski marches, over 100 km bike marches and sometimes we had just 2 or 3 hours sleep a night. I found it quite unpleasant, like I think many civilians would.

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If the Finnish Army waterboarded you as training for resistance of interrogation techniques, I wouldn't quibble. If you sign up in the army as a volunteer and that is part of the training, that is part of the training.

Your point is missed by me. The point I am making that if waterboarding is such a great evil, then why is the US Military able to legally incorporate it as part of their training of officers to resist interrogation? It isn't pleasant, but again, it isn't causing any lasting damage. Again, many of the people the Americans are fighting against, including some of those mooks in Gitmo would be quite happy to hook your privates to a car battery just for the sheer entertainment value. Beheading journalists on camera and sending the video out to the world obviously missed your perview......

bilateral treatment:
The Taleban have one of ours and however he is treated will dictate how we treat our captives.

If the USA kept its nose out of other peoples business, then the world and the US would be a safer place...

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

If the USA kept its nose out of other peoples business, then the world and the US would be a safer place...

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they tried that in 1939. Then they were condemened for NOT getting involved. WE saw how well THAT worked out, ignoring that fella Hitler and that other fine example of humanity, Tadeki Tojo.

You ever actually read history books of what has happened in the past and realized that simple solution are often not solutions at all?

Simplisitic tripe. People want to kill Americans and by extention most of the peoples of the west not for any reason than the fact we have what often they do not. That may or may not be partially be our or America' fault, but unlike you, I don't think it justifies terrorist acts against civilians. THat's ok, you and Eki defend terrorism with your moral relvence and crap....

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

they tried that in 1939. Then they were condemened for NOT getting involved. WE saw how well THAT worked out, ignoring that fella Hitler and that other fine example of humanity, Tadeki Tojo.

You ever actually read history books of what has happened in the past and realized that simple solution are often not solutions at all?

Simplisitic tripe. People want to kill Americans and by extention most of the peoples of the west not for any reason than the fact we have what often they do not. That may or may not be partially be our or America' fault, but unlike you, I don't think it justifies terrorist acts against civilians. THat's ok, you and Eki defend terrorism with your moral relvence and crap....

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America defends and carries out acts of terrorism, so dont think that they are innocent coz they are far from that Mark and YOU know it.

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

America defends and carries out acts of terrorism, so dont think that they are innocent coz they are far from that Mark and YOU know it.

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Name one ACT of terrorism. The invasion of Iraq is controversal, but isn't terrorism. Ditto Afghanistan.
Since when did rogue Americans run around the world hijacking and killing in the name of some nebulous cause?

You confuse terrorism with realpoltik. All large nation states are not saints, neither your UK or the USA have been total virgins I agree BUT I wouldn't call either nation supporters of terrorism. Funding and supplying contra groups fighting communism in the 80's was I suppose a form of state supported terrorism, but as I said, the Chinese do it, the Iranians do it, the Russians do it...the UK has done it. Very few major powers are walking around with clean hands on this one.

However, I look at the US, and I usually see them at some level trying to do the right thing. I will say for the most part, they at least have some debate about their actions and there is an accounting for their misdeeds. Do the Russians lose sleep over their oppression of the Chechens? Iran lose sleep over giving the North Koreans missle technology, supporting Hezbollah or the Shiite radicals planting roadside bombs in Iraq?

How about the French losing sleep over their support of some pretty slimy characters in Africa?

Steve, you cant hold the USA to a different standard. Sorry...you want to judge all nations by this standard, you might only see the Scandinavians and Maybe Canada ( maybe...I am sure we have done something stupid somewhere ) as having pure motives. You want to condemn the Yanks that's fine, then spread it around and be fair and nail everyone....

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Name one ACT of terrorism. The invasion of Iraq is controversal, but isn't terrorism. Ditto Afghanistan.
Since when did rogue Americans run around the world hijacking and killing in the name of some nebulous cause?

You confuse terrorism with realpoltik. All large nation states are not saints, neither your UK or the USA have been total virgins I agree BUT I wouldn't call either nation supporters of terrorism. Funding and supplying contra groups fighting communism in the 80's was I suppose a form of state supported terrorism, but as I said, the Chinese do it, the Iranians do it, the Russians do it...the UK has done it. Very few major powers are walking around with clean hands on this one.

However, I look at the US, and I usually see them at some level trying to do the right thing. I will say for the most part, they at least have some debate about their actions and there is an accounting for their misdeeds. Do the Russians lose sleep over their oppression of the Chechens? Iran lose sleep over giving the North Koreans missle technology, supporting Hezbollah or the Shiite radicals planting roadside bombs in Iraq?

How about the French losing sleep over their support of some pretty slimy characters in Africa?

Steve, you cant hold the USA to a different standard. Sorry...you want to judge all nations by this standard, you might only see the Scandinavians and Maybe Canada ( maybe...I am sure we have done something stupid somewhere ) as having pure motives. You want to condemn the Yanks that's fine, then spread it around and be fair and nail everyone....

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I agree with you Mark..seriously i really do.

But a few certain people on these forums have great enjoyment bashing other countries, yet its not fair if someone gives the US a quick stabbing in rerturn.

If these people get crappy when the US gets a quick bashing, they shouldnt dish it out!

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

At the end of the day its just a lil bit of payback.

A few certain people on these forums have great enjoyment bashing other countries, yet its not fair and its not nice if someone gives the US agood stabbing in rerturn.

If these people get crappy when the US gets a quick bashing, they shouldnt dish it out!

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you Mean Fousto and Anthony? I suspect they either don't care or are ignorant in it I agree BUT there are Americans such as Chuck who are just justifiably proud of their country, as we all are about our nations while giving a good debate and defense.

I can bash Americans in ways they cant always refute since I have spent a lot of time down there and have taken their history and compared it to Canada's experiences and understand the drives that created many of the policies in the US. My point tho is my complete respect for not just the US, but any nation that democratically elects its leadership and holds for the most part the rule of law and a definable constitution with individual rights. The USA was the first nation to really create that and much of the rights we enjoy to day are as a result of the fact the Americans forced the issue. Their revolution spawned the French Revolution, and the very rapid opening up and democratic advances in Westminister and the Commonwealth of nations. They didn't invent freedom, but they gave it a loud voice....

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I can bash Americans in ways they cant always refute since I have spent a lot of time down there and have taken their history and compared it to Canada's experiences and understand the drives that created many of the policies in the US.

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I know where you are coming from on that one

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

The USA was the first nation to really create that and much of the rights we enjoy to day are as a result of the fact the Americans forced the issue. Their revolution spawned the French Revolution, and the very rapid opening up and democratic advances in Westminister and the Commonwealth of nations. They didn't invent freedom, but they gave it a loud voice....

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i would have to disagree with you on that one

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

i would have to disagree with you on that one

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You will. Doesn't change the reality tho. We members of the Commonwealth surely were a bit more cautious and measused in how we evolved into our current democratic systems, but the Yank's started from scratch with a radical idea and a revolution. You may not like it, but they did pretty well with it, even if they did sort of ignore that bit about all men being equal for their first 80 or so years of nation hood.....

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

If the Finnish Army waterboarded you as training for resistance of interrogation techniques, I wouldn't quibble. If you sign up in the army as a volunteer and that is part of the training, that is part of the training.

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Good point, the US Army is volunteer, the Finnish Army is not. And the prisoners in Guantanamo aren't there voluntarily either. A US soldier can be sure in his training that he will be yanked up before he drowns, the Guantanamo prisoners can't.