Remember any new rules must suit Ford and Citroen.....Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
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Remember any new rules must suit Ford and Citroen.....Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
It will indeed be interesting to see what FIA does. But if they bring the 1.6T rule forward to 2011 (which is good IMO) it must be because they are unhappy about the possible competition from IRC. With two interim years (2011 and 2012) running with S2000 cars the WRC will be in direct competition with IRC. I can`t imagine FIA would like that, to have two international (global) championships running to the same rules, and possibly even risk the WRC to lose out in this competition by drawing more manufacturers and especially top independent teams into IRC as this series is less expensive. With Eurosport closely involved in the IRC, and more live TV forthcoming from the IRC-events, this is also a battle that could easily be lost re. the sponsorship market.
With quicker and more spectacular 1.6T cars WRC will keep the position as the major championship, and that must be the goal of the FIA.
You’re right, this issue has more to do with politics than sport!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskald
From the Monte 2009 media impact, it’s impossible to deny the existence of WRC/IRC rivalry, but FIA could have avoided it with the selection of Eurosport Events for the WRC promotion.
Comparing ISC and EE work of the last years, it’s hard to understand the criterion used by FIA on the WRC promoter choice, especially when EE assured a joined WRC/IRC promotion that surely would benefit rally sport.
Perhaps a strong and competitive WRC it’s not in the interest of FIA and its F1 partners…
The video at the bottom of this page:
http://www.ir7.at/fotostest120509.html
...is quite a compelling argument for S2000.. Ok, we all know it's slower than a World Rally Car but that is a damn site better to watch and listen to than any sodding Focus I have ever seen.
Yes, they have great sound and the slowness I think is only noticeable by the clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
I calculated from the results of Argentina the average speed of the winner (Loeb) and the best group N (Al-Attiyah). Loeb’s average speed was 83,76 km/h and Al-Attiyah’s average speed was 76,31 km/h. The difference is only 7,45 km/h.
With a speed of 83,76 km/h on a 100 m view, it take 4,3 sec to pass and with a speed of 76,31 km/h it takes 4,72 sec. The difference is only 0,42 sec, which IMO is not noticeable with the eyes. With higher speed a difference of 7,45 km/h is even less.
Km/h____sec / 100 m_____Difference, sec (Row – fastest)
180_________2,00
170_________2,12_____________0,12
160_________2,25_____________0,25
150_________2,40_____________0,40
140_________2,57_____________0,57
130_________2,77_____________0,77
120_________3,00_____________1,00
110_________3,27_____________1,27
100_________3,60_____________1,60
90__________4,00_____________2,00
80__________4,50_____________2,50
Yoy mean that when you are in a ss you can t see the difference in speed between wrc and N4 car? :dozey:Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
I agree with OldF, over that distance you probably can't see the difference in actual speed (probably even less on tv). It's all about how agile the car looks, how attacking the driver looks and how the car sounds. That's why it's so important they get the rules right, and if we go the turbo route they must sound like they are actually pushing and not driving to Tesco.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Τοttaly disagree!!Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
it is obvious that a wrc car passes faster than a pwrc car whatever you are in a u-turn or in a 5th gear corner.I am talking about the speed can understant the human eye.
Or i am a hawk? :p :
You`re not a hawk, dimviii. You`re just like me and many others, who actually like WRC-cars and think they are a damn bit faster and more spectacular than both Gr. N and S2000. There has been a trend on this forum to argue that S2000 is more spectacular and fun to watch than WRC. Now someone tries to convince us that there isn`t actually a visual difference between WRC and Gr. N. Honestly I can`t understand that at all, unless my own eyes deceives me totally.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
But then again, I`m an old geezer and need glasses for reading newspapers...
i cringe when i see an s2000 hit a hairpin on dry tarmac...
There are two points for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskald
Number one is if a wrc car is more spectacular than a s2k - n4 car.For me there is no question whatever corner,tarmac,gravel,uphill,downhill,mud etc.
Number two is about the competition in these championships.For me again there is no question .IRC is much better,fresh,new rallys,and the best reason for me is that you don t have a clue about who is going to win every rally.
if i had to choose,i d choose IRC with no doubt.
If i had to choose just a car yes it had to be a wrc.
But the best car with no competition is zero.IMO.
I think it’s more about feeling. You now a N4 is slower so it also looks slower. My point was to show that on a 100 view (which is quite long in some rallies) the time difference is not big. 83,76 km/h is about 10% higher than 76,31 km/h and 4,72 sec is about 10% longer than 4,3 sec.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
At least for me the sound of a rally car is essential and S2000 has good sound and WRC cars once had good sound. The other thing is more sliding and I’m convinced it will be more spectacular if the active centre diff is banned. More nice 4-wheel sliding true the corners.
WRc may be a lot faster than S2000, but the sound seems quite oposite, i might go with s2000 too.
But the thing that turns me off is the TV editing and sequence that eurosport do with IRC, always puts me to sleep! no matter the hotter (as in great action) the rally is, the tv production just don't seem interested on reflecting that through the screen... If wrc's production of the tv shows is not all that good, compared to IRC's is FAR BETTER; remember i0m just talking of days highlights or event highlights, not live stages.
Me too. That Fabia in the video I liked to earlier is handling like a proper rally car (sliding, opposite locking, even some scandinavian flicking).. and not like a hovercraft (Focus)Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
As I said before, I believe that they way the car handles and sounds is at least as important as the outright speed. I'd even go as far as to say, that if you put the Focus through that very same stage as the Fabia, 9 out of 10 "normal" people (ie. not rally forum freaks) watching on tv will think the Fabia is at least as fast.
Although I'm a big fan of what IRC is doing, I'm inclined to agree with you to an extent there. I wasn't too impressed with the day reports on Eurosport last weekend (the 30 minutes edited highlights programme shown this week was better) The WRC programming is certainly slicker, although I still prefer the IRCs matter-of-fact commentary to the silly bugger pretend live WRC commentary.Quote:
Originally Posted by playmo
[quote="OldF"]I think it’s more about feeling. You now a N4 is slower so it also looks slower. My point was to show that on a 100 view (which is quite long in some rallies) the time difference is not big. 83,76 km/h is about 10% higher than 76,31 km/h and 4,72 sec is about 10% longer than 4,3 sec.
At least for me the sound of a rally car is essential and S2000 has good sound and WRC cars once had good sound. QUOTE]
I think you need glasses, you too, OldF, if you really can`t see the visual difference.
At least you don`t need a hearing aid ;-)
I just feel exactly the same! Many people have found In IRC things that gradually started fading In WRC...Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
It's It is no coincidence, that IRC has grabbed so much reputation,
which Is growing day after day.
Excuse me, I didn’t hear what you’re saying. I already have glasses. Maybe I should by binoculars or even a telescope. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskald
OK, the difference is noticeable but as I said my point was to show how small the time difference is.
“but the hand is quicker than the eye
only a stranger knows why”
Rainbow / Magic
What about a N/A 2.9 Cosworth V6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znEhv2IRnV4&fmt=18
Sounds fecking awesome and has plenty of power :D
Oh yeah, was out watching the Plains on Saturday and you could hear it miles away. Awesome, that is how a Rally car should sound. Pity it retired.Quote:
Originally Posted by 306 Cosworth
A wrc car driven by Loeb or Mikko may be better than a group n car driven by say Nassar but Sandell in a S2000 is better to watch tha Wilson or Compac in a WRC
in other words id prefer to see 10-15 good drivers in s2000 cars than 5-6 good drivers in WRC cars followed by a few scarletrixs cars that sometimes struggle to beat the pwrc guys
You got the point. WRC cars are not allowed in most of Estonian rallies and Group N is the highest level. So, I must admit that first 5-10 drivers are more spectacular than 90% of WRCars I have seen on the same rallies on the same roads. The point is that when you have drivers who drive on absolute limit then it is not so important is it Group N, WRC on S2000. They are almost always very spectacular. And you need good competition to put the drivers on absolute limit. I saw it in last Estonian rally (Tallinn rally)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Jones
and you can see from the results: http://autosport.ee/rallyreg/?page=3...race_ss_id=53&
That the difference between 1 and 11th driver is only 43 sek. And it was really nice to watch all the time how big effort they all made too keep or gain a position!
Let’s hope we can sometimes see the same in WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Take a look at the end of this video (at 9'50" more or less) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqPuPVyOOJc&fmt=18Quote:
Originally Posted by Torsen
You were saying ?
Good point Helstar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Helstar
I think the people who think WRCars are still good to watch on dry asphalt are living in the past, because the fact of the matter is that a current World Rally Car probably slides less on dry asphalt than an S2000.
Let's hope the people making the new rules for WRC aren't of the same opinion, otherwise they will be sleepwalking into disaster.
Maybe not even remotely associated, but you never know........British Touring Car Championship bring in new rules for 2011.
The 'Next Generation Touring Car' regulations will incorporate a switch to a front-wheel drive only, and 2-litre turbocharged petrol engine formula that rules out cars like the SEAT Leon TDI and the BMW 320si.S2000 and BTC versions of these cars will still be allowed to compete with equalised performance levels until 2013.
Spec six-speed sequential gearboxes, ECUs, turbo wastegates, brakes, hubs, fuel tanks and steering racks will be sourced and price-capped by TOCA to ensure a reduction in spending, while a TOCA-branded powerplant will also be available for £25,000 per year for teams not wishing to conduct their own engine development programmes.
A move to 18" wheels, coupled with a predicted 300bhp output from the turbo engines, is expected to increase speeds, as is a move to slightly larger cars than currently.
It is estimated that a full car, complete with engine, will be available for around £100,000 new, around 50 per cent of the cost of an S2000 machine.
Would be one h@ll of a shock if WRC commission makes rallycars 2 wd again, (Max himself said that he favoured 2wd for rallycars some 15months ago) If not the eqivalency factor could conceivably be used in WRC to allow the IRC manufacturers a chance to run with existing world rally cars to 2013 when a 1.6T could come in.
While I dont follow the British Touring car championship at all, I think thats kinda of a a brave, but good move moving to those regulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
As a general rule touring cars dont have the need to be sideways as a rally car so the 25,000 grand standard engine (pretty cheap really for a motorsport engine) along with FWD should work quite well.
If Max even gets a little bit excited about going to 2WD for top level rallying, hes a dead man! What would be the point of having an AWD road car (WRX, EVO etc.) being quicker over a stage than a 2WD rally car if the conditions went suited to the rally car?
I do especially like the idea of the price cap of equiptment expences. Ive had the same idea for quite a while and as far as I can figure, the best way to keep the costs down and the competivnes up is to allow a certain budget, arrange a certain selection of components with fixed prices and teams can mix and match from those components to build their cars as long as the budget isnt breached.
The end result is that your car may be strong in some areas (ie. more powerful engine) but suffers in others (ie. suspension setup).
A Group N car only looks slower when its competing against WRC cars. The BRC has banned WRCars and with Gr N being the top level the top 6 or 8 cars always appear to be 'on it'! however sound restirictions in the UK mean they are very quiet compared to European events!
As only the top few drivers in any championship are really going to be exploring the limits of their cars I personally would rather see a couple of mediocre driven S2000 cars than a couple of average WRCars - in this instance the aural benefits outweigh the technology!
I also think this is the only way to control and cut costs. The manufacturer of springs, dampers, turbos, gearboxes, ecus etc. would homologate the parts and the parts would have a max price. Also if the cars would have a max track instead of a max width, even the drive shafts could be standardized. Nowadays the WRC teams also put a lot of effort (=money) taking off few hundred of grams from here and there from the engine parts and instead puts ballasts to the rear to get a better weight balance of the car. This could be prevented by setting a fixed front/rear weight distribution, for example 53%/47%. This way a privateer or a private team could acquire parts for a competitive car.Quote:
Originally Posted by grugsticles
Are there any rumors on what will be presented on the June FIA meeitng as the new WRC format ?
1.6T based on S2000 regulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
But for 2010 and so on, or two years with s2000, and then 1600T? And, by other hand, could today wrc cars compete at FIA championships next year? With an extra weight perhaps? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
Forget that S2000 for WRC won't happen, it will be 1.6T from 2011 onwards, next year with current WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by morganmilan
The rally commission will present the 1.6T proposal, which six manufacturers supports, to FIA in the 24th of June meeting. ISC will give their proposal for 2010, which includes 13 rallies and no rotation.
http://translate.google.com/translat...story_sta te0
http://mag.gpweek.com/
page 16/17 - I am well and truly confused by now!!!!! - does this mean 2000 N/A again, and S1.6T in 2013 -
So was I, but obviously what it says will happen - S2000 until 2013, then S1.6T. Personally, i'd allow a choice between both plus a TDI, but that ain't going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
What about this scenario:
Ford and Citroen agreed to 1.6T on condition that at least another manufacturer commits to the championship. In the absence of another manufacturer the 2 teams would revert to the original plan to go 2.0 na. The manufacturer that everybody thought would join with a 1.6T was VW and now that won't happen the 2.0 na plan is back on the table until 2013 (as mentioned) with 1.6T thereafter, but of course 2013 is a long way off and things do and can and most likely will change.
Does that make sense?
Lol, this is really getting beyond a joke now.
Indeed, FIA incompetence is infinite.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
I dont know if its is FIA incompetence on this issue as Morrie Chandler (WRC Rallies commission) said that those 2 manufacturers dont know their own minds they keep changing what they want from the rules every week. My personal opinion is that the parent companies, (Ford & Citroen) have siad there is no money to develop a new 1.6T competition engine in time for 2011. Hopefully the car markets pick up and in future we can have an 1.6T as this is definately the way road cars are going (smaller engines). Also (cynically I guess) they see 2 manufactureres in WRC when Proton as a new manufacturer has just joined IRC. If IRC can boast Pugeot, Skoda, FIAT, Proton, Opel whilst wrc manage 2 it makes car buyers think where is the best competition. WRC needs to poach at least one of these manufacturers from IRC, and Abarth has said if its S2000 N/A they would join.