What counts is that real F1 fans and insiders know the truth that Ascari's holds the record :)
The mentioning of current generation drivers is for drivers who have raced against each other recently, like Vettel vs The Shoe :)
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What counts is that real F1 fans and insiders know the truth that Ascari's holds the record :)
The mentioning of current generation drivers is for drivers who have raced against each other recently, like Vettel vs The Shoe :)
The difficulty is that the roundy-circle race wasn't a F1 race, neither were any of Ascari's 9 wins, as the championship in 1952/53 was for F2 cars. So in effect Ascari does not have the record for consecutive F1 wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by cynisca
This is further complicated by the fact that the silly circle race wasn't for the said F2 cars either it was for their own specification of vehicles and was only part of the championship because it was a WORLD championship and rather than organise a race in the States, they included the biggest US race already created, ie. Indy.
I kind of agree that Ascari shouldn't be credited with 9 world championship wins in a row because he didn't win a round of the championship, but at the same time he should be because he won every race that he could enter with his team as part of the championship, further more his achievement should be recorded because it is an awe inspiring record.
As to the opinion that it will be too easy for Vettel to break it given the current F1 situation, if he breaks it he breaks it, it is not Red Bulls fault that they have a car and driver that can't be caught and Vettel shouldn't be belittled because he is winning in the best car, after all in 1952-3 the Ferrari 500 was the only car capable of winning. In 52 the only other winner (Indy apart) was Taruffi in a Ferrari. In 53 Farina won in a Ferrari and Fangio won the last race of the season in a Maserati
However you care to split hairs, the facts remain that
(1) Between Piero Taruffi winning the Swiss Grand Prix on May 18th 1952 and Mike Hawthorn winning the French Grand Prix on July 18th 1953, the only man to win a World Championship Grand Prix was Alberto Ascari
(2) In 1952 - 1953 there were 15 Grands Prix plus two Indianapolis 500s that were qualifying races for the World Championship and Ascari won 11 of them
Nobody can dispute that he was 'the man to beat' in those two years.
Edit: British GP corrected to French GP
anfield5:
"after all in 1952-3 the Ferrari 500 was the only car capable of winning. In 52 the only other winner (Indy apart) was Taruffi in a Ferrari. In 53 Farina won in a Ferrari and Fangio won the last race of the season in a Maserati"
True enough in 52, but the real reason for Maserati's slow start was the absence of ace driver Fangio for most of the season. By 53 a revitalized A6GCM was thoroughly competitive. Although the win record flatters Ferrari somewhat, Fangio had 3 strong 2nds, also 2 poles before winning at Monza.
Running the championship to F2 regulations made Ascari's task harder, not easier. It could have been run to F1, F2, sportscars or car transporters, and Ascari still would have dominated, such was his form at the time.
I checked with the F1 official site, and noticed that they include records fro 1952-53 along with the others, they don't even asterisk the F2 years or explain the difference. This seems to me not a bad approach. That Ascari's feat was achieved in F2 cars, does not demean it in the slightest.
Which F1 "official site" was that? Does it belong to the FIA or to Mr Ecclestone's Formula One Group, which includes Formula One World Championship Ltd, Formula One Management Ltd, Formula One Licensing BV and Formula 1 Administration Ltd, and other commercial companies? The FIA and the Formula One Group are not the same thing and at times have different objectives.
The distortions of history perpetrated by the Formula 1 Group to further their commercial interests are part of the reason for this discussion.
The site is http://www.formula1.com/default.html. I seldom go there and don't use if for records, I usually look to Wiki for those.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
I simply wanted to see that 1952-53 was covered and Alberto Ascari was recognized, positive in both cases.
The site lists a registered trademark for F1 whatever that means. The site is not noted for accuracy as last spring their section on John Surtees listed 0 poles in his career, I managed to get a correction which they accepted. Can't say what other mistakes are there.
I had a look around the site. It appears to belong to Bernie Ecclestone's Formula One Group. Which is presumably why it lists every championship as a "FIA Formula One Championship", which they have trademarked, but strictly speaking is only correct post-1981. But, in fairness, it does include the Indianapolis 500 in the listings.
I'm not for an instant trying to belittle Ascari's achievements. The way I prefer to look at it is not that he won 9 in a row, but over two seasons he won 75% of all the world championship races he competed in (excluding Indy), and all of the wins were consecutive. It would be like Vettel winning 30 in a row now days. Even with the best car in the field this is impossible and puts into perspective how good Ascari was.
Right, the emphasis is on buying items, tickets, trinkets etc, also focused on the present. I figured it probably is connected to Bernie.
Well, congratulations to Sebastian Vettel for winning 9 Grands Prix in a row and 13 in a season and winning 4 consecutive World Championships.
This is a feat comparable with Ascari winning 9 consecutive World Championship Grands Prix in a row and 11 World Championship GPs out of a possible 15 over the years 1952-53 or with the more recent achievements of his compatriot Michael Schumacher.
It will become irrelevant when Vettel wins the opener next year and has sole possession of the undisputed record.
There was a certain inevitability involved once Vettel won pole yesterday. Even with a couple of hick ups, he was still able to crank up the advantage over Weber.
Most, but not all commentators mention Ascari specifically when stating the 60 year old streak that was equaled; I am satisfied when they do. Were he to win next time, that would go beyond Ascari's feat given that a completely new formula will be in play.
I wonder if gifting Weber was ever even considered, or were they focusing on the record book? Other situations Mansaell and I think Senna backed off for teammates when nothing left was at stake. I never really expected it today; maybe Vettel cares more about records then he lets on.
Anyway congratulations Seb on a most unlikely achievement.
It will be interesting to see what happens. Sometimes a change of Formula leads to a change of the pecking order, sometimes temporary.
1966 - Brabham-Repco took over from Lotus-Climax. But Lotus came back with the Lotus 49-Ford
1961 - Ferrari took over from Cooper-Climax. Cooper never really came back
1954 - Maserati and Mercedes eclipsed the hitherto unbeatable Ferrari
1934 - Mercedes and Auto Union completely dominated Alfa Romeo and Bugatti. Bugatti never came back.
Yes I am thinking of 1966 when I say a completely different team could be favoured in Australia. Possibly some have written off 2013 to prepare the next era's cars.
By the domination of RBR it certainly looks that way.
Seb's achievement was indeed phenomenal. Considering how competitive F1 is now, it is amazing. But also the freeze on engine development etc helped with car reliability to help him achieve 9 in a row IMO. I really am shocked that he took these last 9 races, it was great to watch him dominate the field, including his teammate in the same car.Quote:
Originally Posted by D28
Records are there to be broken, I'm sure we will see Seb break most of The Shoes records shortly. First will be the pole positions, then who knows, most wins, most WDC? Time will tell I guess :)
So not unsurprisingly Vettel's streak ends at 9, and Mark Hughes of MotorSport was one commentator who noted that he and Ascari share the consecutive win record. I am satisfied with this result, both drivers deserve full marks for the achievement. The odds on Vettel winning again with a completely new formula were just insurmountable.
I had forgotten all about that.
That is some record for Seb and as you say it was always unlikely he would win his 10th given the huge changes.
Its nice to have a piece of F1 history that is shared between the very earliest days of F1 and the very most recent.
"Its nice to have a piece of F1 history that is shared between the very earliest days of F1 and the very most recent."
Very well put, I agree totally with this assessment. I notice that the record site I consult now lists Ascari's steak of 7, still second with Schumacher, with an note explaining the Indy issue. That I also agree with.