What happens if Ford goes bankrupt

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

You know, the average wage for UAW workers has been flat for maybe 25 years, so much have they given back, and renegotiated.

Meanwhile the pay to executives---you know the ones that make the decisions on what product to build and sell---has grown for about 40 times the average UAW workers wage to about 450 times the average wage.

But yep it must be all those greedy workers making 45-50,000 a year that is the root of all their problems, no way is it the executives making 22-30,000,000 a year----regardless of if the company makes a penny or not.

Satanas poiki, I though your name is Wood eye, not wood head!!! perrrrkele!

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Comrade Janva.....
Please spare us the poor exploited worker B.S.
The average salary for a GM factory worker is $64,000 a year. That is a lot for an assembly line job.
http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/...sembly+Line+GM

The other issue is benefits. That cost added brings the average cost of each GM assembly line worker to around $100,000 a year.
All that for a job that in any other industry is worth about $20 an hour(41,600 a year).

Of course you forgot to mention the failure of the bailout in the senate was 100% the fault of the Unions.
You know the Unions. They are organizations run by people who make 100,000's of dollars taking care of the "workers". Even if the destroy the comapny and the workers loose their jobs.........but they still get paid.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Comrade Janva.....
Please spare us the poor exploited worker B.S.
The average salary for a GM factory worker is $64,000 a year. That is a lot for an assembly line job.
http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/...sembly+Line+GM

The other issue is benefits. That cost added brings the average cost of each GM assembly line worker to around $100,000 a year.
All that for a job that in any other industry is worth about $20 an hour(41,600 a year).

Of course you forgot to mention the failure of the bailout in the senate was 100% the fault of the Unions.
You know the Unions. They are organizations run by people who make 100,000's of dollars taking care of the "workers". Even if the destroy the comapny and the workers loose their jobs.........but they still get paid.

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It is kind of messed up to defend the pay of an assembly line monkey when teachers are lucky to make more than $35,000.00/year in our public schools...

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The Big 3 makes cars that Americans want.
Why do you think Renault, FIAT, Peugeot, Skoda ect don't sell in the US?

Fact is today nobody's Cars are selling.
The problem for the big 3 are the Unions.
2 years ago GM and Toyota sold about the same amount of cars. Toyota made money GM lost money because of labor costs.

Anyway.
Ford is in better shape than the other 2. in fact they are turning down the Federal loans.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...TO01/812100431

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During last Detroit car fair, they interviewed some people that represented us car manufacturers, they said american cars dont sell.
Also I think it would be clever to build cars others might want too, not only the domestic market.

No big deal.. Life goes on. What about workers in the factories? That's real question not guys like Mr. Wilson, Mr.Hirvonen or Mr.Latvala who are full of money...

[quote="janvanvurpa"]Meanwhile the pay to executives---you know the ones that make the decisions on what product to build and sell---has grown for about 40 times the average UAW workers wage to about 450 times the average wage.[quote]

Well, that I agree as well. The salaries of the upper and middle executives are way too high as well. But I red somewhere that there are 5 million people working in auto industry in U.S. If you want to have those 3 giants to survive something dramatical must happen. But it seems that the unions don't get this.

I see this situation pretty much the same as we had here in cold Finland with paper industry. Salaries have been to high, and the unions have refused to discuss any major changes. Outcome: Many factories have been closed down and many will still be closed.

[quote="janvanvurpa"]Satanas poiki, I though your name is Wood eye, not wood head!!! perrrrkele!B7HF1G[quote]

:D I've heard woodhead sometimes as well.. :D

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The Big 3 makes cars that Americans want.
Why do you think Renault, FIAT, Peugeot, Skoda ect don't sell in the US?

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Because they've decided to not to go there?

The big three could make just cars like Yugo's and still because of the Patriotism Americans would buy those. Have you ever wondered why none buys Ford F-150 here in Europe?

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

Because they've decided to not to go there?

The big three could make just cars like Yugo's and still because of the Patriotism Americans would buy those. Have you ever wondered why none buys Ford F-150 here in Europe?

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Renault, FIAT, Peugeot, Alfa Romeo, citroen, Daihatsu, Lancia have all been sold in the US and all have met little sucess.

American's tastes in cars are different. A Ford F-150 is inpracticle for Europe with it's narrow roads and high gas prices.
A Ford F-150 is a practicle drive for many in the US.
Porsche, Mercedes, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity, Honda/Acura, have all built either Large SUV's and/or large Pickup Trucks specifically for the US market.
Ford and GM builds small cars for Europe.

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Meanwhile the pay to executives---you know the ones that make the decisions on what product to build and sell---has grown for about 40 times the average UAW workers wage to about 450 times the average wage.

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Well, that I agree as well. The salaries of the upper and middle executives are way too high as well. But I red somewhere that there are 5 million people working in auto industry in U.S. If you want to have those 3 giants to survive something dramatical must happen. But it seems that the unions don't get this.

I see this situation pretty much the same as we had here in cold Finland with paper industry. Salaries have been to high, and the unions have refused to discuss any major changes. Outcome: Many factories have been closed down and many will still be closed.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Satanas poiki, I though your name is Wood eye, not wood head!!! perrrrkele!B7HF1G[quote:3ibj9iyj]

:D I've heard woodhead sometimes as well.. :D

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[/quote:3ibj9iyj]


Kiiitos Woodeye for taking a gentle poke in the eye and not getting all insane, and wanting to kill me, it was just a gentle poke.

Lookie, wages aren't the only cost,and it was another machinist working next big Heinemann lathe over named Nisse (from where ever it is in Finland where they speak REALLY S-L-O-W-L-Y) who pointed out to me way back in 1974 when he said "Look it up, poiki! TOTAL WAGE COST, that is, your hourly wage, plus the portion of the Old age Pension, unemployment fund, sjukkassan osv and everything else the employers have to cough up for the Japanese have now exceeded the total wage costs here (in Sweden) AND IN the USA."

Years later remembering his words I checked and it was about 1972 that total wage cost for the Japanese car makers went past US and European total wage costs, and yet it is after '72 that we all saw the Japanese car industry grow from tiny to world dominance. Already not just surviving, but growing and flousishing for 30 years with higher total costs than us in the West.

And not only wages is costly for the Japanese, they have to IMPORT every kilo of iron ore, coal, aluminum, plastic, rubber, oil, etc where at least in the US there's coal, iron ore etc just waiting to be dug up and moved very much SHORTER distances to become steel and then become cars.

Costs are only a part of the puzzle and as I said, the Unions have given back huge amounts already and one thing you should recall is they've given up hundreds and hundreds of thousands of JOBS! already.
(Interesting to note that in 1952, Detroit had population of 1,8 miljon, in 2000 it was about 800,000). Kinda interesting the big bosses say the union guys want too much but somehow they can spend 5 miljard dollars to build a new plant in Hermasillio, Mexico and another bunch of billions building a plant in Brazil (just Ford) but they cant pay people a decent wage...

I really don't know what will happen, all i know is the "Official line" is it's always the guy at the very bottom who is at fault for everything in America. The American investor and managerial elite, just like American political elite are de facto exempt for the consequences of their actions.

The mortage crisis was, according to "the other side" caused by "illegal aliens and minorities forcing banks to give them loans", and the car MFG is the fault of the few remaining union workers bleeding all the profit out of the bank vaults of the Big Three.

I don't know what will happen but I think of the words of I think it was Private Rahikainen who said (in my book anyway!) ''Nu står vi i skiiiiti.....ti hi''

Yugo is trash..

[quote="janvanvurpa"]

It was Rahikainen all right but he said it in Finnish.

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

It was Rahikainen all right but he said it in Finnish.

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Jooooovist, it was some version of Finnish he said it in, but my 1955 edition given as Christmas present to Aggi Ohlström from Mariehamn i Åland is for some odd reason written all in Swedish, don't know why.

But this strange mistake turns out to be very fortunate because then I can read it, and enjoy it, and from the reading, spark the curiosity more and then I go and read the massive amount of things about Vinterkriget and the Continuation War and the operations later in Lapland that is online from both sides.

Is there some region 'därborta' that people speak very slowly?

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Jooooovist, it was some version of Finnish he said it in, but my 1955 edition given as Christmas present to Aggi Ohlström from Mariehamn i Åland is for some odd reason written all in Swedish, don't know why.

But this strange mistake turns out to be very fortunate because then I can read it, and enjoy it, and from the reading, spark the curiosity more and then I go and read the massive amount of things about Vinterkriget and the Continuation War and the operations later in Lapland that is online from both sides.

Is there some region 'därborta' that people speak very slowly?

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I think it might be from "Österbotten" i think they use the word "poiki", meaning young boy.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Kinda interesting the big bosses say the union guys want too much but somehow they can spend 5 miljard dollars to build a new plant in Hermasillio, Mexico and another bunch of billions building a plant in Brazil (just Ford) but they cant pay people a decent wage...

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Those 5 billion dollars aren't actual money streams on a certain date that you can track down. The costs for these plants can be depreciated over 30 years or so, so they are only 'counted' as 150 million a year so to say. Furthermore, because these plants are actual assets they can get a loan/mortage to finance it.
One of the major problems the big 3 are facing is that they can't get credit anymore to finance day to day operations. This includes wages but also paying suppliers. I read that GM was already 10 billion behind and Chrysler only pays small parts, but I don't know if that's accurate.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Jooooovist, it was some version of Finnish he said it in, but my 1955 edition given as Christmas present to Aggi Ohlström from Mariehamn i Åland is for some odd reason written all in Swedish, don't know why.

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Most people in the Åland Islands speak Swedish although it is part of Finland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85land_Islands (sorry off post!).

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Originally Posted by Camelopard

Most people in the Åland Islands speak Swedish although it is part of Finland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85land_Islands (sorry off post!).

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But most Finns would happily give it to Sweden. :)

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

But most Finns would happily give it to Sweden. :)

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True, we would be happy to give it away anytime. :)

I am always confused about the many brands that are owned by 1 company. For example what does Ford own? Volvo, Range Rover, Buick, Chevrolet? Is there any link to the lines that are between the different brands?

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Originally Posted by Tomi

True, we would be happy to give it away anytime. :)

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Why is that? I thought it was quite a nice place! (still off topic).

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Originally Posted by Camelopard

Why is that? I thought it was quite a nice place! (still off topic).

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Because they speak Swedish there. And because they want to belong to Sweden there. And because they make ornaments hanging from the roof out of spagetti there. And why they make them? Because they can and they have nothing else to do there. And finally, by giving Åland to Sweden, it would raise the avarage IQ not only in Finland but in Sweden too. ( still pretty much off topic )

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Originally Posted by alleskids

I am always confused about the many brands that are owned by 1 company. For example what does Ford own? Volvo, Range Rover, Buick, Chevrolet? Is there any link to the lines that are between the different brands?

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I think Ford has Volvo, Range Rover, Jaguar (not sure if they have it anymore) and then they own part of Mazda as well. But Mazda have been buying Ford out recently.

When it comes Japanese vs. Americans, I have only one word for you. That's Keiretsu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiretsu That's why they've been able to beat nearly everyone globally when it comes to cars. Oh, and their quality is the best as well.

But now that I think about it, I don't want the Ford to go bankcrupt since that would be the end of Volvo as well. I'm pretty sure that Saab won't see the year 2015 (Saab has made nothing but loss since 1997) so it would be great to have at least one Nordic car brand. I've already decided that the next car I will buy is Volvo or Saab. I want to have some scandinavian cars to live - the last thing I want is to have an option to choose between 15 chinese cars..

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Because they speak Swedish there. And because they want to belong to Sweden there. And because they make ornaments hanging from the roof out of spagetti there. And why they make them? Because they can and they have nothing else to do there. And finally, by giving Åland to Sweden, it would raise the avarage IQ not only in Finland but in Sweden too. ( still pretty much off topic )

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Maybe we can just throw the people living there to Sweden? It's a nice place to go fishing you know. :)

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

Maybe we can just throw the people living there to Sweden? It's a nice place to go fishing you know. :)

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good idea

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Because they speak Swedish there. And because they want to belong to Sweden there. And because they make ornaments hanging from the roof out of spagetti there. And why they make them? Because they can and they have nothing else to do there. And finally, by giving Åland to Sweden, it would raise the avarage IQ not only in Finland but in Sweden too. ( still pretty much off topic )

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skrumpf

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Originally Posted by L5->R5/CR

It is kind of messed up to defend the pay of an assembly line monkey when teachers are lucky to make more than $35,000.00/year in our public schools...

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Yes my significant other went to university for a few years for her teaching degree and earns less than the people who drive petrol tankers around. Way to reward people who have a hand in educating every young British child over someone who does a job which doesn't require years of study :mark:

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

I think Ford has Volvo, Range Rover, Jaguar (not sure if they have it anymore) and then they own part of Mazda as well. But Mazda have been buying Ford out recently

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Indian company Tata now own Jaguar.

Ford sold their stake in Mazda only a few months ago

and GM sold their stakes in Fuji Motor Industry (Subaru) just before Ford sold Mazda.... :) Depts.....!

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Yes my significant other went to university for a few years for her teaching degree and earns less than the people who drive petrol tankers around. Way to reward people who have a hand in educating every young British child over someone who does a job which doesn't require years of study :mark:

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Daniel, it's worse by miles here.
OZ, NZ and UK don't require a Masters Degree plus a year of field work, 7 years total. to teach petulant spoiled suburban kids the simplistic stuff that passes for an "education" in the US (all the while assuring everybody that little Billy is a genius).

Some years ago I sold a Saab 96 to a History Professor from Christchurch University in New Zealand who was doing a year long study in the US so when they came to Seattle to pick the car up I had a little dinner at a friends place.
His wife was a English teacher and when we talking about the educational systems of our respective experiences she mentioned that her school district has 10-12 visits annually from US educators (both teachers and bureaucrats) who, as she said, "were amazed at the reading programs and reading levels" of the NZer kiddies. This was relative to the US levels the US peeps were used to. I asked her how many years were required for a certificate to teach elementary or primary school (because I think those years are the most critical to establishing reading habits) and her answer was "2 (or 3) years. Why?" I 'splained about the Masters Degree + requirement in many parts of the US.
She was thunderstruck, had a hard time believing it and it was good that the house where we were having dinner was a good friend and customer who taught a a local Junior College, and he could confirm what sounds like a bad joke.

There's a bumpersticker i see occasionally here which sums it up well: You think and education is expensive? Try ignorance.

That being as it is however I still wonder where some people of dubious utility to the world, whose productive contributions to keeping the country moving is unknown and likely quite negligible have the arrogance to refer to other people as monkeys as we see in the following contemtuous and contemptable statement;

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Originally Posted by L5->R5/CR View Post
It is kind of messed up to defend the pay of an assembly line monkey when teachers are lucky to make more than $35,000.00/year in our public schools...

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That is the result of the US "educational" system where they aren't taught to a statement in sympathy with one group of workers does not by any means mean that the succinctly put "stuffed up" wage situation of another group of workers is all peaches and cream. How a person could even infer that shows an utter incapacity to think.

But it does show the hatred that too many comfortable very well fed suburban Americans have for their fellows.

As I say, for some, it's always the little guy, the poor, those who look, or speak other ways who are "at fault".

Seems that in addition to logic, they don't teach compassion or sympathy in US schools either.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

That is the result of the US "educational" system where they aren't taught to a statement in sympathy with one group of workers does not by any means mean that the succinctly put "stuffed up" wage situation of another group of workers is all peaches and cream. How a person could even infer that shows an utter incapacity to think.

But it does show the hatred that too many comfortable very well fed suburban Americans have for their fellows.

As I say, for some, it's always the little guy, the poor, those who look, or speak other ways who are "at fault".

Seems that in addition to logic, they don't teach compassion or sympathy in US schools either.

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John,

Get over your socialist delusions and enter the real world.

I don't see the employees of Nissan or Toyota living in slums in the South, where the UAW isn't gorging itself on distorted wages and corrupt political influence.

To defend the wages of a non-skilled laborer being upwards of $45,000.00/yr isn't compassionate, it is delusional.

There are plenty of laborers who work in manufacturing who receive a fair wage which reflects their productivity, their level of efficiency, as well as the market rate for their efforts. To defend the patently distorted compensation that the UAW has been able to extort from the automakers on the grounds of compassion is pure insanity.

If these individuals were struggling to break the poverty line and were putting in a hard 40+ hours a week I would have plenty of compassion for their situation and would defend their right to adequate pay. But these people are receiving inflated wages with so much job security insulation as they are not where near being anything close to efficient.

But it is utterly pathetic to defend the tactics of the UAW, especially to defend their wages as reasonable.

And don't give me some mamby pamby BS about being a white suburbanite. I will be at best a second generation white collar worker, I have complete and utter appreciation for the kind of toils that blue collar workers go through, and I only need to see my grandfathers inability to get out of bed because of his back problems (problems he earned with 40 years working on assembly lines) or watching my uncles loose their jobs to plants in China. I understand the situation that many blue collar workers face.

To defend the UAW is to spit in the face of these individuals who have given their adult lives to hard work and earning their pay based off of their effort and skill, not some political hacks wheeling and dealing.

The problem with the American automakers is systemic, the only way to fix it is to wipe the slate clean, that includes eliminating the UAW from the equation.

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

I've already decided that the next car I will buy is Volvo or Saab.

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I can fullheartedly recommend a Volvo.

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Originally Posted by jonkka

I can fullheartedly recommend a Volvo.

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Yes I´m happy whit my Volvo. ;)


What happens if Ford goes bankrupt?
Ford never goes banktrupt. :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by jonkka

I can fullheartedly recommend a Volvo.

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For who is interested in: Ford want sell Volvo and Saab is still GM property.

I don't blame union for all things, because there are several reasons these big cars companies are failing. The union thing has been corrupt allegation date back to the 50s, there is the bad business choices and the stict regulations for building cars. In the past, GM started buying rail stations and other transported and shut them down to kill all the competition. They spent billions concerntrating on weird researches like unlocking the car for someone when they call in and said they lock themselves out, instead of building a reliable car. Ford has that deisel car that can go 60mpg they can't sell it in America anyway because of so much regulations that makes it difficult, I wonder if it's why so few European brand have their market here. I have talk to this lady who does quality assurance for Chrysler and she said each days there are thousands of cars being set aside before they even left the factory due to not passing the inpsections.

I feel bad for all the people that would lose their job, but I just can't buy a GM car for what they're worth, Chevy Volt is a terrible idea.

Other car manufacturer news:

I read in the newspaper today Fiat and PSA talk about strong cooperation or even fusion.

A question came into my mind, what if these companies works together? What team leaves Rally (WRC/IRC) Fiat/Abarth, Peugeot or Citroen? One company with 3 rally crews is not reduce cost... We have to say bye bye to one, two or...

So now wait what result these talks between PSA and Fiat have.

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Originally Posted by Roy

Other car manufacturer news:

I read in the newspaper today Fiat and PSA talk about strong cooperation or even fusion.

A question came into my mind, what if these companies works together? What team leaves Rally (WRC/IRC) Fiat/Abarth, Peugeot or Citroen? One company with 3 rally crews is not reduce cost... We have to say bye bye to one, two or...

So now wait what result these talks between PSA and Fiat have.

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I very much doubt that will happen.

This belongs in the Ford tread also...

WRC good value and benefits for Ford.

Wake up marketing boys/girls by Ford.
Sorry. This is to optimistic about WRC!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72508