OFFICIAL: Santander to switch to Ferrari for 2010

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

LOL!
I can't argue with that.

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I could... if the original post you quoted were still there :p

:dozey:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Interesting take!
However, IMHO Fred will arrive at Ferrari and proceed to break out a serious can of Whip-@$$,
regardless of who is in the other car!

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I will never doubt his capabilities or the fact that he would probably win a good number of races with Ferrari. ( as he did with McLaren and finished tied for 2nd with LH)

It is the backroom drama and teamate dynamics that comes into question. If he has matured and can see that having another strong driver alongside him only benefits the team as a whole, then good. But if he insists on going the MS route, then expect to see luca badoer driving the 2nd car during his time at Ferrari.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

I will never doubt his capabilities or the fact that he would probably win a good number of races with Ferrari. ( as he did with McLaren and finished tied for 2nd with LH)

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Very high probability.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

It is the backroom drama and teamate dynamics that comes into question. If he has matured and can see that having another strong driver alongside him only benefits the team as a whole, then good

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That situation is a big fat one off! 2007 at McLaren, all things considered was simply a perfect storm! I think he learned a tough lesson there,
is more mature, and a much bigger man for it!

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Originally Posted by truefan72

But if he insists on going the MS route..

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, Well if you mean by being so dominant in a great car that he helped to develope. He diminishes F1 competition so dramatically it resultsin a rule change in point allotment that is IMO absurdly inequitable. Then Yes I think Fred may pull that kind of a MS! Eespecially in the car developement arena

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Originally Posted by truefan72

then expect to see luca badoer driving the 2nd car during his time at Ferrari...

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Badoer, Klien, Trulli, Ant, Lewis, Montoya, Mansell, Sir Jackie. As long as they are sitting in a Ferrari F1 Contender I'm pulling for them.
Yea maybe after he has a falling out at the big "M", Lewis, and Fred could do a Reunion Tour courtesy of Ferrari!
It's all good as far as I'm concerned! :)

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Badoer, Klien, Trulli, Ant, Lewis, Montoya, Mansell, Sir Jackie. As long as they are sitting in a Ferrari F1 Contender I'm pulling for them.

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Who's Ant? I think Sato-san was better. ;)

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Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

Who's Ant? I think Sato-san was better. ;)

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Feel free to ad him to the list :) While we're at I would like to add N. Lauda to it as well.
I believe he still has the fire to compete at this level :dozey:

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Originally Posted by ioan

My bad, I'm working on it but it will need time to change. ;)



Honestly, I believe that all they did was to adapt to the realities of the sport. As did the other teams, cause we can't say that McLaren, Williams, Renault and BMW (all race winning team in the last decade) didn't do it in the same time.
I believe that they gave equal treatment when the drivers were equal (see Alesi vs Berger, and the Ferrari's were race winning cars back than too (not every other race but still winners).

IMO it always boiled down to the drivers capabilities if they were about equal they got equal chances if not than the chances were proportional to the talent and rightly so.

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See, I actually agree with everything that you say there, all of it is correct.

Point I make is that no other teams purposely get a "second rate" driver to support its top driver. Someone posted a list of all of Schumachers team-mates recently, not one great (bar Piquet who was like DH in 99). Schumacher, albeit totally allowed and able to do it because of his huge talent, was able to dictate his team mate, and never really challenged himself in this respect. And whilst all teams have at some point or another used team orders, none to the extint we saw with Schumacher at Ferrari and Bennetton since I been watching F1.

To be fair, his and Ferrari approach worked amazingly well. They dominated the sport. And it was fully legal, and so they were fully entitled to do it.

But for me, with my views to sport, it was an unsporting approach.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

See, I actually agree with everything that you say there, all of it is correct.

Point I make is that no other teams purposely get a "second rate" driver to support its top driver. Someone posted a list of all of Schumachers team-mates recently, not one great (bar Piquet who was like DH in 99). Schumacher, albeit totally allowed and able to do it because of his huge talent, was able to dictate his team mate, and never really challenged himself in this respect. And whilst all teams have at some point or another used team orders, none to the extint we saw with Schumacher at Ferrari and Bennetton since I been watching F1.

To be fair, his and Ferrari approach worked amazingly well. They dominated the sport. And it was fully legal, and so they were fully entitled to do it.

But for me, with my views to sport, it was an unsporting approach.

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Exactly. (although I would suggest that the last sentence could say "against the spirit of the sport" rather than unsporting)

MS may very well be the best racing driver of all time but for the reasons mentioned, and some controversial driving behaviour, will never be universally recognised as such which is a real shame.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

MS may very well be the best racing driver of all time but for the reasons mentioned, and some controversial driving behaviour, will never be universally recognised as such which is a real shame.

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Don't worry for him, he's fine! ;)

Seriously, none of the sportsmen that dominated sports, the way MS did with F1, will ever be universally recognized as such, they all have detractors.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

See, I actually agree with everything that you say there, all of it is correct.

Point I make is that no other teams purposely get a "second rate" driver to support its top driver. Someone posted a list of all of Schumachers team-mates recently, not one great (bar Piquet who was like DH in 99). Schumacher, albeit totally allowed and able to do it because of his huge talent, was able to dictate his team mate, and never really challenged himself in this respect. And whilst all teams have at some point or another used team orders, none to the extint we saw with Schumacher at Ferrari and Bennetton since I been watching F1.

To be fair, his and Ferrari approach worked amazingly well. They dominated the sport. And it was fully legal, and so they were fully entitled to do it.

But for me, with my views to sport, it was an unsporting approach.

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Fair comment! :up:

It is indeed fair comment that it is unsporting. But personally I think it's just using the way the sport is structured to your own (and the teams) best advantage. If you have one driver who is faster than the other it makes sense to concentrate on them and have the other in a backup role.

Has to be said again that if Ferrari had concentrated on Massa from day one in 2008, he would be champion, no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Mark

It is indeed fair comment that it is unsporting. But personally I think it's just using the way the sport is structured to your own (and the teams) best advantage. If you have one driver who is faster than the other it makes sense to concentrate on them and have the other in a backup role.

Has to be said again that if Ferrari had concentrated on Massa from day one in 2008, he would be champion, no doubt.

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Interesting point you raise there Mark.

On paper, they should have put full support behind Kimi as the #1 driver and reigning WDC.

As such, Massa would have been cast in position as a Lapdog to the faster driver. A driver who was there on credit and had proven himself at the highest level. A man that had raced against Schumacher and proven himself worthy. A driver that some suggest might have scared MS out of Ferrari.

If they had adopted this strategy, then where would Massa have been at the end of the year.

If they had of adopted their current strategy with Rubins and MS, what would the outcome have been..... we will never know.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Point I make is that no other teams purposely get a "second rate" driver to support its top driver.

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Really?

Heikki Kovalianen seems to fit that description perfectly.

Fisichella likewise at Renault with Alonso.

Oh, and Brabham were not above putting a make-weight or cheque-book driver in their second car when Nelson Piquet Sr was in the Number 1 role. Step forward Riccardo Zunio, Hector Rebaque, Teo Fabi, Corrado Fabi and, certainly in terms of the way he was treated by the team if not his actual talent-level, Riccardo Patrese.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Interesting point you raise there Mark.

On paper, they should have put full support behind Kimi as the #1 driver and reigning WDC.

As such, Massa would have been cast in position as a Lapdog to the faster driver. A driver who was there on credit and had proven himself at the highest level. A man that had raced against Schumacher and proven himself worthy. A driver that some suggest might have scared MS out of Ferrari.

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Maybe they did, and Kimi just didn't perform even with the Number 1 status.

Unlike Michael, who was beaten on pace by Ruben's about four times in 6 seasons.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Really?

Heikki Kovalianen seems to fit that description perfectly.

Fisichella likewise at Renault with Alonso.

Oh, and Brabham were not above putting a make-weight or cheque-book driver in their second car when Nelson Piquet Sr was in the Number 1 role. Step forward Riccardo Zunio, Hector Rebaque, Teo Fabi, Corrado Fabi and, certainly in terms of the way he was treated by the team if not his actual talent-level, Riccardo Patrese.

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Well, thats pretty arguable. Heikki was seen as a big talent with his solid second half season at Renault. And you'd have to say he is given equal opportunity to win at the beginning of championship.

With Heikki or Fisichella, I don't think it was in either of their contracts to play second fiddle to their team mates. And I don't think their support role was anywhere near as concrete as Schumachers team-mate, who played a support role from race 1.

With both current / recent examples you use, both had equal chance of winning the title at start of each season.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

With Heikki or Fisichella, I don't think it was in either of their contracts to play second fiddle to their team mates. And I don't think their support role was anywhere near as concrete as Schumachers team-mate, who played a support role from race 1.

With both current / recent examples you use, both had equal chance of winning the title at start of each season.

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I think it was the same with both McLaren and Ferrari this season. Both teams gave both their drivers an equal chance of winning. By by the end of the season a clear number 1 had emerged from both teams.

The interesting part is how things will play out in Ferrari in 2009.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Maybe they did, and Kimi just didn't perform even with the Number 1 status.

Unlike Michael, who was beaten on pace by Ruben's about four times in 6 seasons.

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I seemed obvious to everyone except you that Ferrari were allowing their drivers to race this year and rightly so.

I for one was sceptical of Massa's ability to step up and although I have some reservations still about his performance, do concede he has made great steps forward.

What justification or evidence do you have that there might have been a #1 / #2 contract in favour of Kimi or are you just arguing with me for the sake of it again :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mark

I think it was the same with both McLaren and Ferrari this season. Both teams gave both their drivers an equal chance of winning. By by the end of the season a clear number 1 had emerged from both teams.

The interesting part is how things will play out in Ferrari in 2009.

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Yep, good to see two top teams allowing their drivers to race from the off.

I expect Ferrari might employ the same tactic next year as Massa rightly wont accept #2 and Kimi wouldn't even consider it.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

As such, Massa would have been cast in position as a Lapdog to the faster driver. A driver who was there on credit and had proven himself at the highest level. A man that had raced against Schumacher and proven himself worthy. A driver that some suggest might have scared MS out of Ferrari.

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That's just dog crap.

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's just dog crap.

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Why do you and Tamburello have to constantly be so rude?

If you disagree with a statement I make, kindly impart on the rest of us the wisdom used to define your conclusions.

Just a suggestion?

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Why do you and Tamburello have to constantly be so rude?

If you disagree with a statement I make, kindly impart on the rest of us the wisdom used to define your conclusions.

Just a suggestion?

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And a good one. If you are going to say something is wrong; fine. But say why.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Yep, good to see two top teams allowing their drivers to race from the off.

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I omly saw one team doing that, unless we consider Toyota a top team.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I omly saw one team doing that, unless we consider Toyota a top team.

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I should have clarified the two top teams I was referring to.

Both McLaren and Ferrari seemed to be letting their drivers race with no constraints.

I can't remember any specific examples of Ferrari really dukeing it out together but Lewis and Heikki had some challenging moments and I have no reason to suspect Ferrari were anything different.

Does that explain my opinion better?

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I should have clarified the two top teams I was referring to.

Both McLaren and Ferrari seemed to be letting their drivers race with no constraints.

I can't remember any specific examples of Ferrari really dukeing it out together but Lewis and Heikki had some challenging moments and I have no reason to suspect Ferrari were anything different.

Does that explain my opinion better?

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Personally if I were a team manager I'd say to my drivers that they can do what they want with regard to competing against each other, except for overtaking each other on the track; just too risky.

The whole grid raced against Schumacher and the only one that proved to be able to keep up was FA, not KR.

As for what lost sould think about why MS left F1, they better take a look at the age when KR will leave and draw some conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I should have clarified the two top teams I was referring to.

Both McLaren and Ferrari seemed to be letting their drivers race with no constraints.

I can't remember any specific examples of Ferrari really dukeing it out together but Lewis and Heikki had some challenging moments and I have no reason to suspect Ferrari were anything different.

Does that explain my opinion better?

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Kovalainen was never allowed to race Hamilton, not even when he was in front of him because on his own merit.

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Originally Posted by Mark

Personally if I were a team manager I'd say to my drivers that they can do what they want with regard to competing against each other, except for overtaking each other on the track; just too risky.

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That is an arguement that has been used by all team managers at one time or another.

LH for example was livid that he wasn't allowed to have a go a Alonso at Monaco 2007.

Personally, one of the highlights of last year was Lewis and Heikki challenging and even touching at times especially at the beginning of the season. Don't get me wrong, I was screaming at the TV and ripping my hair out at the risk but it was compulsive stuff.

However, I'm not a team boss. ;)

(However, if the money's right, I may be open to an offer :D )

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Originally Posted by ioan

Kovalainen was never allowed to race Hamilton, not even when he was in front of him because on his own merit.

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Fair enough if that's your opinion.

Don't agree though as I've seen them racing against each other. Must have been different races I was watching such as the Bourdais pit exit penalty one ;)

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I seemed obvious to everyone except you that Ferrari were allowing their drivers to race this year and rightly so.

I for one was sceptical of Massa's ability to step up and although I have some reservations still about his performance, do concede he has made great steps forward.

What justification or evidence do you have that there might have been a #1 / #2 contract in favour of Kimi or are you just arguing with me for the sake of it again :rolleyes:

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Well, considering how Kimi is paid in the region of $20million more per year, it should be pretty obvious who Ferrari expected to be Number One in the team.

The fact that Ferrari now allow their drivers equal status says more about Kimi's inability to become an outright Number 1 on merit, as Schumacher so evidently did, than it does about Ferrari's previous policy of an Outright Number 1.

Kimi cannot perform to the level an Outright Number 1 should. For that reason, it would be a useless policy to employ.

However, given that his wage cheque is four times that of Felipe, it would appear that Ferrari had not expected to have to use an equality policy when he signed.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I can't remember any specific examples of Ferrari really dukeing it out together but Lewis and Heikki had some challenging moments and I have no reason to suspect Ferrari were anything different

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Side by side through Eau Rouge to Stavelot, that was the red cars was it not?

Pulling wide and not defending a corner at Hockenheim from your team-mate, even though mathematically you still had a chance of the championship, those were the silver cars, were they not?

(Not too mention DC having to pull over twice for Hakkinen)

But keep believing that Mclaren are sportsmanlike and have equal policies. Even though your eyes are telling you otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Why do you and Tamburello have to constantly be so rude?

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Because we have a low tolerance of tossers, maybe?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Because we have a low tolerance of tossers, maybe?

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Now that ought to provoke a 'mass debate'!

Sorry, should I get my coat? :D

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Because we have a low tolerance of tossers, maybe?

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OK, you may not choose to observe the forum guidelines but don't expect others to stoop to your level. A level where you insult and physically threaten other forum members.

The Mods may be prepared to accept your behaviour but personally, I would be grateful if you just ignore my posts from now on.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

. A man that had raced against Schumacher and proven himself worthy. A driver that some suggest might have scared MS out of Ferrari.

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As pissed off as I was when it happened, Fred kicked Mike's @ss out of F1.
Massa, who I like, was keen to accept Mike's vast storehouse of knowledge this season, and it paid off.
I disagree with those who suggest that Massa scared him away. I find it comical :p :

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Originally Posted by Tazio

As pissed off as I was when it happened, Fred kicked Mike's @ss out of F1.
Massa, who I like, was keen to accept Mike's vast storehouse of knowledge this season, and it paid off.
I disagree with those who suggest that Massa scared him away. I find it comical :p :

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I think he was actually referring to Kimi, not Felipe.

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Originally Posted by Tazio

As pissed off as I was when it happened, Fred kicked Mike's @ss out of F1.
Massa, who I like, was keen to accept Mike's vast storehouse of knowledge this season, and it paid off.
I disagree with those who suggest that Massa scared him away. I find it comical :p :

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My bad! Sorry Knockstar! I am guilty of PWC at 7:30AM

Can we keep the personal insults out of it please :s

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Originally Posted by Tazio

My bad! Sorry Knockstar! I am guilty of PWC at 7:30AM

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That's fine Taz.

Personally, I think Fred was the natural sucessor to MS and think Kimi was always valued slightly above his true worth. However, Schumy considered Kimi to be the main man so what do we know :D

If Kimi was elevated to Schumy like levels of assistance within Ferrari, we might never have seen Massa develop past a lapdog and Ferrari would have been in a much weaker position in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Tazio

As pissed off as I was when it happened, Fred kicked Mike's @ss out of F1.
Massa, who I like, was keen to accept Mike's vast storehouse of knowledge this season, and it paid off.
I disagree with those who suggest that Massa scared him away. I find it comical :p :

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Good one! :D
Cheers! :)

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

If Kimi was elevated to Schumy like levels of assistance within Ferrari, we might never have seen Massa develop past a lapdog and Ferrari would have been in a much weaker position in my opinion.

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Remind me how much assistance Kimi got from Ferrari in 2007, than take a look how Felipe had to support him that season, Kimi got everything that Ferrari could give him and became a WDC because his team mate gifted him a win in the decisive race.

Now, tell us when did MS win the WDC because his team mate gave up a win in front of his own crowd!

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

That's fine Taz.

Personally, I think Fred was the natural sucessor to MS and think Kimi was always valued slightly above his true worth. However, Schumy considered Kimi to be the main man so what do we know :D

If Kimi was elevated to Schumy like levels of assistance within Ferrari, we might never have seen Massa develop past a lapdog and Ferrari would have been in a much weaker position in my opinion.

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I can't argue either of those points. In fact I believe it is likely true!