Glock/Toyota paid off to slow on the last lap?[merged]

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

oh, hell.

can't someone just win and someone just lose the championship around here?

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No, it's time to start the off-season complaining, conspiracies and "ifs" :)

o god

if u look at glocks car as he pulls away goin up the hill you will clearly see he was wiggling allover the place havin probs getin his tyres to grip.

im personly gutted massa didnt win it but im happy a brit did and so should all of you.

hamilton drive fabtastic all season so congrats to him for making a dream come true

all as did massa maybe 2009 will be massa year.

championship was settled in a fantastic race full of drama and racing end of

role on 2009 season

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Originally Posted by christophulus

Of all the things that could be said about that race, I never thought this would be one of them! McLaren paid off Toyota? Got a bank transfer done on the final lap did they?

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Maybe they used PayPal??? ;)

I'm not a Hamilton fan and I was hoping for Massa, but the season couldn't have ended with any more suspense!

As for Glock (and Trulli), I suspect that he had been on his dries for awhile and they had probably lost what little traction they had. You wouldn't need more rain on the last lap, just less grip. Or, is that too simple?

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Originally Posted by bowers

Try reading, nowhere in this thread have I said Glock was on rains... it's common knowledge he was on dry tires on his last stint. He was setting faster lap times on all but that last lap on his dry tires!!!

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Because the rain started falling down heavily and the track was suddenly too wet for slicks?

Some people just feed on conspiracies :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by bowers

He lost over 15 seconds on that last lap and seemingly slowed down right at the very last corner to a snails pace. Does anyone else find that worthy of some kind of inquest. It smells extremely fishy.

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I can reveal, without any fear of contradiction, that Tony Soprano made Glock an offer that was too good to refuse.

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Originally Posted by bowers

Try reading, nowhere in this thread have I said Glock was on rains... it's common knowledge he was on dry tires on his last stint. He was setting faster lap times on all but that last lap on his dry tires!!! .

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well, i was reading. it just seemed that, instead of a conspiracy theory, the bleeding obvious needed to be stated. Occum's Razor (the hypothesis containing the fewest assumptions will almost certainly be the correct one) and all that.

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Originally Posted by bowers

Put your bias aside and think about it... at this point in time we don't know if he went off track (also a high possibility) but if he didn't, losing 15+ seconds on the last lap to a guy that was slower/equal to you can be considered suspicious right now. .

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My bias? Against whom? Against what? i take up a contrary position to you, ergo i am biased? god, what is it with this site and the inability to think before posting? try Occum's Razor again. you're making assumptions other than the obvious one: you're wrong.

I admit it. i am biased. biased against people who don't think before they post.

if you knew glock was setting fast times, you had access to F1's site or some other live timing site, in which case you could see his splits with his team mate. trulli had no interest in slowing down on the last lap, neither did glock.

dry tyres work reasonably in light wet, until they lose temperature (and, of course, until the standing water becomes more prevalent), then you are in a no-win downward spiral. the cooler weather and the standing water and the lower lateral grip levels and lighter brake loads all conspire to drag the tyre temp down and you cannot get it back again.

i suspect this is what happened to toyota as the rain got heavier.

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Originally Posted by bowers

Also Kubica joining the battle hampered Vettel way more than Hamilton as he actually fought with Vettel and casually strolled past Hamilton in an attempt to get his lap back (you know incase the safety car came out it would make a lot of sense to do that), but that is an absolute non-issue so why you're even bringing it up confuses me.

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the way hamilton moved for RK left a door ajar for vettel, who did a superb job to take it. a superstar of the future.

and, wow. on the second last lap RK was gambling on a safety car? i know kubica and he's not that stupid. I know Mario Theissen and he's not that stupid, either...

...that leaves one of you.

Mickey!! why do you try to fight ignorant stupidity with reason?

janeppi, please not: I am directing my thoughts at the post, not the poster.

Bridgestone grooves with zero tempreture = zero grip, its a simple equation which explains Glocks pace or lack there of at the end of the grand prix, it started to rain much more heavilly in the last lap (with a full on mass deluge after the race). A common misconception is that the reason that dry tyres don't work on a wet track is due to aquaplaning, which is nonesense, as in an aquaplaning situation not even wet tyres work!!

The truth is that dry tyres are designed to build up heat on a dry track, on a damp surface they don't work because the damp track surface cools the surface of the rubber and there isnt enough movement in the tread to build up heat, wet tyres have blocks between the tread patterns that move around to create heat, which explains why wet tyres on a dry track go off very quickly, they get massively overheated because the dry track surface is warmer and has no water to cool the tyres down. As dry F1 tyres have a relatively small optimum operating window as far as tempreture is concerned, if you fall away from that and you are driving on a surface that can't give you the tempreture back you see a dramatic drop-off in performance, ala Glock in Brazil. Case closed.

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Originally Posted by philipbain

Bridgestone grooves with zero tempreture = zero grip, its a simple equation which explains Glocks pace or lack there of at the end of the grand prix, it started to rain much more heavilly in the last lap (with a full on mass deluge after the race). A common misconception is that the reason that dry tyres don't work on a wet track is due to aquaplaning, which is nonesense, as in an aquaplaning situation not even wet tyres work!!

The truth is that dry tyres are designed to build up heat on a dry track, on a damp surface they don't work because the damp track surface cools the surface of the rubber and there isnt enough movement in the tread to build up heat, wet tyres have blocks between the tread patterns that move around to create heat, which explains why wet tyres on a dry track go off very quickly, they get massively overheated because the dry track surface is warmer and has no water to cool the tyres down. As dry F1 tyres have a relatively small optimum operating window as far as tempreture is concerned, if you fall away from that and you are driving on a surface that can't give you the tempreture back you see a dramatic drop-off in performance, ala Glock in Brazil. Case closed.

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Quite right, it is nothing we haven't seen before.

I can't believe that people would even go so far as to suggest it wasn't really raining!! I saw it.

it was raining, but Glock just could not handle it....much like Trulli earlier proved (and through most of his career) he could not handle it.....

But he was really trying to prove he could be LH's lapdog for the next Mac opening.....unlike SV

FFS Markabilly, he was just trying to stay on the road!

he said later he had no idea he was the keystone in the title race, so how that translates into helping hamilton i have no idea.

his lap time was no different to his team mate's and, given nobody else was on dry tyres, he's the only valid comparison.

Toyota didn't make a mistake by leaving him on dry tyres. It might have made him look silly at the end, but Toyota moved up one place because of it and that extra point is worth serious money. It was a very smart move.

Oh, and last point in Kubica unlapping himself: real good thinking, because in a race where he struggled to pass a braking point, he was thinking that in half a lap he could catch and pass Kimi, Alonso and Massa to get back on the lead lap? Please, people, think a bit before posting!

how can so many people look reason and reality in the face and come up with conspiracy?

only possible answer: because you want to.

why? because it's easier than doing what Massa so classily did: sucking it up and losing with dignity.

He is to be applauded. some folks here should be derided. if only the mods would let us...

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Originally Posted by bowers

He lost over 15 seconds on that last lap and seemingly slowed down right at the very last corner to a snails pace. Does anyone else find that worthy of some kind of inquest. It smells extremely fishy.

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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

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Originally Posted by bowers

He lost over 15 seconds on that last lap and seemingly slowed down right at the very last corner to a snails pace. Does anyone else find that worthy of some kind of inquest. It smells extremely fishy.

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bowers :arrow: :bigcry:

solution:

Attachment 2075

any questions?... ;) :p

The dry "grooved" tyres have been known to work in damp conditions before, but they would have to have a lot of groove left (as explained earlier, the tread moving around creates a lot of tyre heat and keeps the tyres in the operating window). As far as I remember, Glock changed to a 1 stop strategy before half distance. His tread must have been almost worn through (extra tyre wear because the earlier rain kept washing the rubber off, leaving a rough road surface throughout the race). With rubber that needs a higher operating temperature (harder compound) and not having the the grooves left to keep the temp up in damp/wet conditions, the tyre performance would drop dramatically. Difference between driving on sticky rubber and hard plastic is about 20s per minute lost.

Just look back at Spa when all the dry-runners were going 40s slower than the inter-runners on the last lap.

Do I win a prize?

I predicted that when I logged on to the forum today there'd be a pathetic thread moaning about Glock and consipracy theories :rolleyes:

I seriously don't see what people's problems is. Would you not be asking questions if the shoe was on the other foot?

Well bowers, the evidence seems to suggest Glock/Toyota weren't paid off. But don't give up, there are other angles you can try to develop.

hint - the timing and location of the clowd burst on the last lap seems quite suspicious.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

And the CIA shot John F Kennedy.
Good grief. Charlie Brown.

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Actually Lyndon Johnson has Kennedy shot.

Congrats to Lewis and congrats to Massa for staying on the track one time when it rained!!

Wonder if Trulli was paid also, so Glock didnt look stupid. This dispells any theory.. Both Toyota's last lap times were 8-10s off the leaders.. argument closed.

Anyone heard whether Timo made it out of Brazil or not ?

Cross him off the list of those who will drive for Ferrari .

Kinda weak in the conspiracy theory concept here . I'm quite sure we can do better than this .

I think Fousto had something to do with it . You know how much of a Lewis fan he is .

Did you threaten to slip a diamondback in Timo's slippers , cowboy ?

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Do I win a prize?

I predicted that when I logged on to the forum today there'd be a pathetic thread moaning about Glock and consipracy theories :rolleyes:

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Yep, this thread was inevitable :dozey:

I see around the net, and even here mutterings of Glock allowing Hamilton pass, and that is just garbage.

If Glock had chosen to gift the WDC to Lewis all he needed to do was pit for wets along with every other driver, rather than stay out on drys and make a go for it.

Looking at the timings you will see that both drivers who stayed out on dries lost the same amount of time on the last lap, so no conspiracy, just a gamble that didn't pay off for Trulli and Glock

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/Glock.jpg

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Originally Posted by yodasarmpit

Looking at the timings you will see that both drivers who stayed out on dries lost the same amount of time on the last lap, so no conspiracy, just a gamble that didn't pay off for Trulli and Glock

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Actually, it DID pay off for Glock, and nearly paid off for Trulli - Glock was seventh and Trulli was eighth before the rain. Glock still gained a point from not pitting despite his last lap, and Trulli didn't lose out.

It was all the Demented Midget!
He arranged for the rain to cause a 10 min. delay to the start so his second planned shower would arrive with 5 laps to go and it would alter the race to provide a super exciting fiinish.
Makes as much sense as the other theory. :vader:

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Originally Posted by yodasarmpit

I see around the net, and even here mutterings of Glock allowing Hamilton pass, and that is just garbage.

If Glock had chosen to gift the WDC to Lewis all he needed to do was pit for wets along with every other driver, rather than stay out on drys and make a go for it.

Looking at the timings you will see that both drivers who stayed out on dries lost the same amount of time on the last lap, so no conspiracy, just a gamble that didn't pay off for Trulli and Glock

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/Glock.jpg

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Hold on just a second now .

That table shows Trulli was 2.2seconds faster through the final sector , even though , when he got there it would have been wetter .
Could there be something to this ?

Yes he drove a better final sector than Glock ! just get over it

It only came down to the final corner because of the stewards fixing it for Massa to still be involved on the final race anyway.

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Originally Posted by foxystoat

Yes he drove a better final sector than Glock ! just get over it

It only came down to the final corner because of the stewards fixing it for Massa to still be involved on the final race anyway.

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Had you read the entire thread , you might have noticed that I made fun of it earlier .

If you re-read your post , you might see why I see it as ironic that you dredge the past in your last sentence , and tell me to "get over it" in your second .

Please pay attention .

I noted that there time difference in the final sector was larger than might be normal , when at the same time , the conditions should have worsened .

Glock should not normally be 2.2 seconds slower in better conditions .
That's in a sector time frame of 22.8 -25 seconds .

I don't believe he was paid by anyone to be so slow , but it does seem a bit stark .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Hold on just a second now .

That table shows Trulli was 2.2seconds faster through the final sector , even though , when he got there it would have been wetter .
Could there be something to this ?

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I'm sure Glock lost some time getting passed, but I didn't see the race.

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Originally Posted by Malllen

Stupid rumour, stupid thread.

If Glock hadn't gambled on drys then Massa had no chance in the last 5 laps.
No chance.

Anti-McLaren conspirators (whoever they are on this occasion) should be holding Glock in high praise for giving Massa at least half a chance of the title up until the final corners.

And giving us a brilliant conclusion to the title.

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Couldnt have put it better myself..

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Had you read the entire thread , you might have noticed that I made fun of it earlier .

If you re-read your post , you might see why I see it as ironic that you dredge the past in your last sentence , and tell me to "get over it" in your second .

Please pay attention .

I noted that there time difference in the final sector was larger than might be normal , when at the same time , the conditions should have worsened .

Glock should not normally be 2.2 seconds slower in better conditions .
That's in a sector time frame of 22.8 -25 seconds .

I don't believe he was paid by anyone to be so slow , but it does seem a bit stark .

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If he was 2.2 secs slower in the final sector but the lap times were nearly identical to Trullis he must have been 2 seconds faster in another sector. So was Trulli slowing down in that one ? You are the one posting ridiculous conspiracy theories that cannot be backed up even by the sector times.
He ended up over 5 seconds behind Hamilton & Vettell in the end not 2.2 as he could barely keep it on the track. He gambled on slicks gained a place & nearly 3 in the end it was a brave gamble that paid off gaining him a point.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Hold on just a second now .

That table shows Trulli was 2.2seconds faster through the final sector , even though , when he got there it would have been wetter .
Could there be something to this ?

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Part 2

I'm sure Glock lost some time getting passed, but I didn't see the race. Looks Like he was passed by 2 cars for position on the last lap (Vet + Ham - who were within a second of each other - so both passed in Sector 3?) and maybe some lapped cars also passed him "I really don't know where Lewis overtook me because four cars past me left and right, left and right. I was just concentrating to keep the car on the track. That was the only way. "

That will tend to slow you down a bit more especially if you are fighting to stay on the black stuff.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71968

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Originally Posted by Somebody

Actually, it DID pay off for Glock, and nearly paid off for Trulli - .

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Sorry, I should have said it didn't pay off as much as it could have.

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Originally Posted by tintop

Part 2

I'm sure Glock lost some time getting passed, but I didn't see the race. Looks Like he was passed by 2 cars for position on the last lap (Vet + Ham - who were within a second of each other - so both passed in Sector 3?) and maybe some lapped cars also passed him "I really don't know where Lewis overtook me because four cars past me left and right, left and right. I was just concentrating to keep the car on the track. That was the only way. "

That will tend to slow you down a bit more especially if you are fighting to stay on the black stuff.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71968

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That's a reasoned response .
Thanks for that .

I recall all those around him giving him a pretty wide berth , 2 on one side , 2 on the other .
Hardly surprising they were going by , against dries , but I don't recall them hindering his line .

One little slip can lose you that time in the wet , I guess , but Jarno must have had an amazing last one if he did it in the wetter conditions .


The slow times do fit with the "he slowed down" scenario .
I point to it and get harassed .

Touchy winners .

I have no idea how many of you have raced in the rain but it is bl---y hard to keep it on the black stuff even with wet tires. Actually if it is pouring it is easier as the inevitable oil has disappeared. Very damp to slightly wet is almost impossible on dries that have lost temp.
It is like driving with almost bald tires on ice that has a thin layer of water on it. Grip zilch!
And yes I have raced in the rain (and sometimes in the dark to boot).

Hell , Drifter , that's when the party starts out there .

Trick is , though , getting that damned mini-van back end to swing out wide for me with that stupid stomp it again pedal for the e-brake !

Sometimes it's ditches filled black ice all the way to the groceries and back , with 2 mini-vans worth of vision the whole way .

I'd give both Jarno or Timo a go any day , for the cost of the groceries .

Most fun topic of the whole forum - keep on going guys :D

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

I have no idea how many of you have raced in the rain but it is bl---y hard to keep it on the black stuff even with wet tires. Actually if it is pouring it is easier as the inevitable oil has disappeared. Very damp to slightly wet is almost impossible on dries that have lost temp.
It is like driving with almost bald tires on ice that has a thin layer of water on it. Grip zilch!
And yes I have raced in the rain (and sometimes in the dark to boot).

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I've done a lot of rain racing and when cars in faster classes are passing you (especially on either side of you) I think you can tend to lift a bit, especially if you have little grip and or they throw up crap on your wind screen. Glock also had some points in the bag and couldn't possibly challenge non-dry tire guys so it would make sense that he give up a little time when they passed him. Again, I didn't see it, but his statements seem to indicate that he was pushing as hard as he could - and he felt sorry for Massa.

Hi Bagwan. I do not not known where in Canada you live but I am right on Georgian Bay in Ontario's snowbelt. For the last couple of years I have been driving our Co. GMC 3/4 ton van on no weather tires. Is that ever fun in the white stuff. I felt like a dirt track sprint car driver. Now have a Cobalt. My grocery store is 20 k. one way. (sold the Co.)
I have also winter rallied in Int'l open road events plus stages but at least the cars were properly equipped.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Had you read the entire thread , you might have noticed that I made fun of it earlier .

If you re-read your post , you might see why I see it as ironic that you dredge the past in your last sentence , and tell me to "get over it" in your second .

Please pay attention .

I noted that there time difference in the final sector was larger than might be normal , when at the same time , the conditions should have worsened .

Glock should not normally be 2.2 seconds slower in better conditions .
That's in a sector time frame of 22.8 -25 seconds .

I don't believe he was paid by anyone to be so slow , but it does seem a bit stark .

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Maybe Trulli is more talented/got better handling out of his set-up? in wet conditions things can change a lot, even if the conditions were worse the 2,2 secs could be explained that Glock nearly lost the car somewhere in sector 3 while Trulli didn't.
or Glock slowed down quite a lot once he lost his 4th place and noted the 7th place driver was way behind and Trulli kept on "running" since webber was probably close to him.

nothing stark or strange to me.

A big shame for me, my least favourite driver was going to lose the championship thanks to my two favourite drivers!.

It was announced today that Timo Glock and Hekki Kovalien will trade seats next season. Also Di Montezemolo horse whipped Mosely into abandoning any idea of spec engines. RB scored the girl from Ipanema and promptly traded his travel luggage to Bruno Senna. And yes McCain won the election here in the states albeit David Duke voted 17 million times.

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