But it would bankrupt me. That doesn't work.
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But it would bankrupt me. That doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
adding an oval or two would certainly have a appeased a few loyalist ....instead we will see 1/2 full stands at the 25k seat .6tv rated belle isle
perfect!
Time will tell.
I don't agree. Do ALMS and NASCAR get in each other's way? This would not need to be any different. A series starting from scratch, completely focused on open wheel road racing, with zero connections to Indy. Another series which revolves around Indy and is currently having problems with it's core fan base because it has strayed away from the all-ovals formula by adding "street race parades". Freed from the pressure of trying to be all things to all people, the IRL could go back to what it does best, while the new open wheel road racing series could focus on what it does best. Some fans will watch both.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
When we hear about things like grid, schedule, money, etc., guess we'll know how viable it is or isn't. IMO, the Atlantics could continue with the right breaks because of their history but the hodge-podge of old Reynards and DP-01s might be better suited for the vintage set to be viable.....if, indeed, the money is there to even run them.
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Originally Posted by Miatanut
Wow, you sound just like Tony George did back in 1996. I didn't agree with him then, I don't agree with you now.
ALMS and NASCAR. Are you freakin' kidding me? Saying those two are as different from each other as ICS and "Green" Prix, is the most ridiculous thing that has been said thus far in this thread.
"Same fans will watch both." Didn't you learn a thing from the last 13 years?
Gary
I think the vintage guys are exactly who this is aimed at - guys who get a taste for speed but either do not have the heart or cash to race their vintage F-1 car and keep it "original"..... They might be talking the big talk right now - but I think that is what this is really about (don't forget vintage guys tend to be vintage guys because it is "real" and "pure" racing - or at least harkens back to that era (which may be viewed with rose colored glasses in some cases..)....Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
keep quessing Tony fans.. nobody has it right yet. Better yet, just ignore this whole thing and save your energy. It really will have no bearing on the IRL, or ride buyers, or vintage racing....so why worry about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
One can only hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Somebody has to bring top tier Formula Racing to the US. I am not saying this is it but it could be a start.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Or even a "start".Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Gary
But lets be clear here. The true motivation to those that would support this series is that it is not run by TG. That's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
It's always an "us versus them" argument for you, isn't it? While I agree there would be a certain constituency among their possible supporters that feel that way, I am in no way ready to suggest it is the ONLY constituency. As mentioned before there are likely to be a group of vintage folks (both drivers and fans) who will be interested.
Hell, if it turns out that all the PR fluff about its "ultimate goal is to bring back premiere open wheel racing at all levels that reflects the purest racing values that the fans and drivers love", turns out to be just PR fluff and its REAL goal is to be nothing more than a "arrive and drive" series which doesn't represent a challenge to competing for sponsors, venues or teams, then I'll watch too.
Gary
You may be right - but I don't think so - this one is not about the IRL. I really think this is just a guy using old Champcars in an effort to create a niche in a significantly different area of the motor-sports spectrum than the IRL. Like Gary, I doubt this thing makes it far, and I am pretty sure it will never see "real" television. I seriously doubt the efficacy of his plan in this economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
Anyway, to the defenders and haters of TG alike - I really do not think Greenprix represents ANYTHING to the IRL.... At the most it will cause some people to attend one of their races instead of an IRL race that is less convenient (i.e. - if Greenprix were to ever come to NJMP I would probably drop any thoughts of ever going to see the IRL 5 hours away in Watkins Glen - but if both come to NJMP I'd go to both...)
That would be nice if they had a race or two in the NY/NJ area. IndyCar, forget about it, and NASCAR, no thanks. I do not see it any differently than a vintage series or Atlantics, which sounds like it's going under anyway. But if they want to rebrand it as "CC is no longer dead" and get some of the diehards, then I guess that's an ok business approach. No one says they have to be honest in their marketing or press releases.
If they rebrand it as "CC is no longer dead", they better bring more money than Kalkhoven and Forsythe.
And the IRL is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Right now there are 4 formula series that have superior cars and technology.
F1
GP2
A1GP
Superleague
Doen't say much about a series when 3 "ladder" series are above the US's top series.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
And how did you come to that conclusion?
And which of those actually run 200+ mph on ovals? Oh yeah, none. They're all road course-specific cars, not comparable. Regardless of the Honda/Dallara technology, it's a solid spec that has run its course and within 2 years will have a successor. Is this other series offering a new spec in that timeframe, or any? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Agreed, Nick.....and it's just Anthony's opinion about the "ladder."
Let me clarify. I was talking about the "fans" that are rah rahing this potential series, not the investors. IMO the investors are just trying to make a buck and there is nothing against that. But I can't take any "fans" who think this is a good idea seriously, can you Gary? You know their motivation.
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Originally Posted by garyshell
Do I? Do you? Are you lurking on the old "crapwagon" sites and taking what they might be saying as the opinion of ALL the potential fans of this series? (I have no idea what is or is not being said there. I quit looking MONTHS ago.) The point is, it is much to early to tell WHO the fans might be, because we don't know yet what the series even is. If it doesn't try to position itself as a rival to ICS, then I might be a fan too.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
As I said before in your rush to judgment, you are turning this into another of your "us versus them" arguments. I am having none of it. Until I know what this series is beyond the PR fluff we have seen thus far, I am reserving further judgment beyond my initial claim that it won't be around a year from now based SOLELY on it being an arrive and drive business model.
Gary
I'm going by the guys who have posted here in support of this new series. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that their only motivation is to see "Green" race cars. BS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Who wouldn't want to see a Champcar turn its wheels in anger once again, or a CanAm car or a turbo F-1 or a Group c, or a.... People can be "excited" about Greenprix with no thought whatsoever about TG or the big picture of AOWR in general....
Also, a formula is a formula. The only cars that are CLEARLY technologically above an IRL car are F-1 cars and ALMS prototypes... I think all the other formulas mentioned are not much different from the IRL in that they are spec chassis and engines that all have rev limiters, carbon chassis and appropriately advanced aero-dynamics for their purpose... They amy be newer - but that does not necessarily mean better....
Good Point Chris R.
I would support Green Prix because I love Champ Cars, not because I hate TG (I do, but so do most people). I would also love to see turbo F1 racing again, or GTP cars. How sweet would that be!
Racing was so much cooler in the 1980s
"YAWN"Quote:
Originally Posted by nickfalzone
You can hopeQuote:
Originally Posted by nickfalzone
the DP01 is a generation and a half ahead of the IRL Dallara Chassis. The Reynard is of the same generation as the Dallara.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickfalzone
1. Sorry 200 doesn't register with you.
2. Already in process....it will.
3. Please explain to us how far ahead the DP01 is ahead on ovals and even what the major difference might be on a road course. If the Dallara is slower, you already said 200 doesn't mean anything, so I guess slower doesn't mean anything, either. Doesn't compute, anthony.
Fair enough, though the Dallara has had many updates along the way. Interestingly the times of the Dallara in 08 were fairly competitive with CC times at the same tracks like Edmonton. Today's Australia practice times were 2-3 secs off last year's DP01 times with top IRL times same as bottom CC times, so it's an exaggeration to say the IRL cars are so off the pace on the roads/streets. Handling and shocks may lead to some problems, but the speed is good for cars that are not road specific designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Just the fact that some people have thier panties all in a bunch over this shows they think it might not actually be so irrelevant.
Um, IRL is 4 or 5 seconds off the pace. If you want to start comparing the fastest IRL to slowest CC's that were off the pace, you better be careful not to lose your rose colored glasses when comparing Atlantic to the IRL at Edmonton or else you might be in for a shock.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickfalzone
Quote:
Originally Posted by bennybigb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
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Originally Posted by downtowndeco
Ok, I'll oblige you. You are wrong! See the two quotes above your's. Am I saying that ALL of those who have posted on this subject are not TG haters. Of course not. But you, on the other had are trying to say that they all are. You are wrong. Some of them, including me are in the same camp as Chris R. I would love to see those CCWS cars again, just like I'd love to see Can Am cars again. Not in the context of the old CCWS cars in a series trying to compete with ICS, or the CAN-AM cars in a series trying to compete with ALMS. No, I don't want to see that. But in the context of a vintage series, or a exhibition series, or some other minor role in the grand scheme of things, hell ya. That's why I, unlike you, am waiting to see how this really plays out before I start hating it.
Gary
They're not 4-5 secs, they're 2-3 secs off last years pace of a supposedly generation and a half newer car. I see 34s from Will and 31s from last year's qualifying. And once again, Atlantics, Formula cars, or whatever road-racing cars you want to bring up are not a direct comparison. I'm not suggesting that the IRL is a great street racing car... but for a spec that was primarily designed for oval-racing, it has done reasonably well on the old cart tracks. And as has been said many times before, no one in attendance can tell a few secs per lap difference from the stands, so until we get back to the point where the cars are trying to break track records, just enjoy it for the competitive racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
Listen. For anyone to say the current IRL chassis was an oval only chassis is a bit of a joke. First off, the cars are NOT offset. The only adaptation the cars ever had to have to run road racing was wing packages and where the fuel buckeye sat depending on the course. THATS IT. So spare me all this rot about how the IRL cars are not doing too bad for an oval specific design. They were designed to race period by people who know damned well that sooner or later they would be run on road courses. If the IRL never had any intention of running road courses EVER (which was the theory in 95), why didn't the rules laid for this formula allow for offset suspension, weight jacked to the left and asymetrical layouts that would make them far more adaptable to turning left all day?
The DP01 was 3 seconds faster than the current IRL cars at Edmonton due to their horsepower and yes...their more modern design. That doesn't mean this IRL car is inferior really as a racing car since they do race well and are entertaining. Faster isn't always better. That said, spare me this fiction they were an oval only design "adapted". The DP-01 I am sure would run like jack the bear on ovals and likely wouldn't give up anything to the IRL car. Why? SImple...that Cossie has about 100 to 150 more ponies...duh!!!
Now getting back on topic, this new "green" series is an interesting concept made by someone who doesn't really understand the pitfalls of what he is going into. Maybe someone like Forsythe or Kalkoven should give him a call.....and tell him to forget the whole idea.
"BOTH" is a copout. George has demonstrated his lack of flexibility for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Baloney.
IC....you and I can disagree for days on Tony and his willingness...but I would suggest for you to say Tony's strategy of stone walling was a willingness to work with CART/CCWS is a bit of a farce. His theory of "I have the money and the playpen" worked in hindsight....so spare me the PR spin that Tony was a willing guy for a merger. He wanted it..on his terms..and in the end he did get it.
You're right that we could disagree for days....and there's no point in doing that any more.
Until you put the demise of Atlantics AND Surfers under your beloved magnifying glass IC.
I didn't like to see the Trans Am go away and I would not like to see the Atlantics diminished or go away. Surfers is thousands of miles away on a channel I don't get, they apparently want to focus on this as a North American series and I have no idea of the financial feasibility of the deal.
Again, you have CCWS management to blame for that, not TG.
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Originally Posted by pits4me
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Originally Posted by pits4me
Another us versus them argument, huh? Why am I not surprised? A few FACTS you might want to consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
#1. CCWS mangement did not own the Atlantic series. Gerry Forsythe did.
#2. ICS is racing at Surfer's this weekend. Any continuation of or demise of that is the sole responsibility of ICS. CCWS has nothing to do with that.
Gary
If you want to end the US vs THEM stuff then the first step is to accept facts and not act as propoganda spokesmen. We can start by not making up numbers. Power is more then 4 seconds behind last year not 2-3. The slowest CC's were faster then IRL pole.
FYI Atlantic was around 4.5 second slower then IRL pole at Edmonton. Realistically, the IRL as a series is halfway inbetween the speeds of Atlantic and CCWS, not equal to CC. If you really want to accept that and use rationalizations about how it doesnt matter or that the IRL is oval focused, I guess that is a matter of opinion. but that is kind of weak since this is racing
I'm at a loss on motivations of those of you who would hope the new race series dies, don't want to see the most powerful and modern open wheel car in north america run anymore, argue which cars are faster in racing doesnt matter, and fail simple tasks of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch and claim those who attend a racing event would never be able to tell the difference. Just what kind of racing fans are you?