Can someone tell me what was the rally where Richard Burns got two positions higher on behalf of Petter Solberg and Markko Märtin at Subaru ?
I guess it just happens.. right NOT?
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Can someone tell me what was the rally where Richard Burns got two positions higher on behalf of Petter Solberg and Markko Märtin at Subaru ?
I guess it just happens.. right NOT?
That was the San Remo Rally of 2001, I believe. Burns was promoted from sixth to fourth as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.F.F.
Edit: Poo. It was Corsica. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_d...01/1610295.stm
I remember him finishing fourth. Hmm.
Hmmm... makes me wonder if Burns was as all right witht he decision as Hirvonen this weekend. Care to answer that N.O.T. ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenMcNugget
And also that year Burns won the championship with 1 point advantage i think so peters 'sacrifice' was a crucial one... same with colin and carlos in spain a few years back and loix and makinen in acropolis ects ects....arranging positions within a team although i don't like it i can accept it... (Another example for team orders is that usually 2nd drivers within a team are told to secure points rather than attack, which is basically the same as giving away positions to the 1st driver)
Interfering with a supposed rival team to get what you want is too much...so i guess old dogs can't learn new tricks but sick ones can very well do so....lets hope the sick dogs retire from the WRC for good in the following year.
Team orders always existed. As fans we don't like them because we dont have involvement in a team return on investment.
It is acceptable to me that Citroen would freeze position like, for instance, in Germany 2005. It is still acceptable that Ford say to their driver to switch place like in Spain this year.
Though, it is totally unacceptable for a team to inforce team orders on another team, like M-Ford did with Stobard this time around. This is collusion.
Mikko said he did not want 2nd place that way, acknowledging that he made a mistake. This goes to his credits and i'd like to think that he was truthfull with that statement. Though he needs to follow team orders. He is surely not to a level were he can overrule his team manager. So IMO the blame is only on Malcom Wilson.
I think, even though I cannot point to a specific rule, that what Ford did today was not legal. And I think they should sanctionned for it. It's just for the principal of it, as i don't think their "tricks" will have any influence on either championships.
I had, in past most respect for Malcom Wilson. I am afraid I cannot say that anymore, at least as a team manager.
I'm sure that you are not working, but in real world if you don't do as the company that gives you the paycheck tells you to do, you get sacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Exactly!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodeye
Look, team orders have always happened, what has really annoyed people is the way this one was done - involving another team - Stobart Ford - and the way Malcolm said when interviewed how they would consider it. To openly say they would use team orders is wrong- were the Stewards/F1A listening? Probably not!
Wow, this sport is getting downright ugly. I really don't like tarmac races, errr rallies, because they're boring. Corsica just adds insult to injury.
Waltzing into the forum and reading what happened with Ford is embarrassing. Malcolm shamelessly told the entire world that he was bringing down a supposed rival team in order to place Mikko up a few places and get on the podium.
What's the point of even running Stobart? I'm starting to forget what the point is to even follow the WRC.
the fact that malcom didn't do the same when Gronholm was in the team shows that its not team policy to enforce team orders for the drivers championship...so Mikko i guess was part of it.
No but feel free to express clearly and pubicly your opinion instead of the whispering. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
correct me if I'm wrong here(I'm not) but the 3 cars you mention here were all in the 1 team, this weekend an 'independant' team was forced to help out a bunch of under achieversQuote:
Originally Posted by A.F.F.
It was because the Structo Ford run in Germany was privately owned and run by R-Tec - not M-Sport. But the Stobart team asked Duval and the Structo boss if he would run for manu 2 points since he's an experct in Germany. But Malcom couldn't ask Duval to drop down behind Hirvonen, because it wasn't his car and it wasn't his driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenMcNugget
Quote:
Originally Posted by cut the b.s.
Same ****, different package. Stobard is as independed as I am in my marriage, hence it does exactly what Wilson tell them to do.
However the point was towards my fellow member N.O.T. here who's personal crusade to certain drivers is so ridicilously black & white he can't see the difference anywhere. Mikko certainly accepted the gift from Wilson and now ( again ) whole of WRC seem like a farce. But like I said, other drivers in the past has accepted it too. Obviously it's a whole different thing when it's done by N.O.T's favourite driver :D
read my post please (No44)
Isn't Malcolm the team principal of both teams anyway? They are an M2 team, so total independence is not neccessarily the idea.
Yes he is - but like Daniel and others have expressed, then Ford cannot have it two ways. Either Stobart is an independant team able to score Manu points - or they are a part of Ford as a whole and can only score drivers points. Ford cannot have it two ways and that's what most of us are critical about.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenMcNugget
That's also why previous team-orders with Subaru, Mitsu or Citroën cannot be compared, because that has never involved other teams.
Which I'm not sure about. Should teams be independent? While having more WRCars entering is good, having them all from the same Manufacturer/Team does allow these situations to arise. All it's done is open a can of worms.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenMcNugget
You must be joking? So according to you Loeb & Citroen has not been playing with tactics this year at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by Karukera
Spot on, those of us who watch a bit of F1 still will have seen a Ferrari engined Toro Rosso battle for points with Ferraris championship challenger, how refereshing this battle for a point was compared to what Msport/Ford did yesterdayQuote:
Originally Posted by MikeD
We are talking about using cars from other teams. Not road order tactics. Unless you count Conrad crashing into Sebastien tactics :p
When did Sordo let Loeb pass him or when did Sordo took intentionally penalties?? :eek: :rolleyes: I do not remember... i'm curious, can someone refresh my memory?Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
And you should ready my post n. 46. Like A.F.F said, you are here just to bash the drivers you don't like with your tired sick dog -phrases.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
You don't remember Citroens slowing down to get better road positions?Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
And no, it wasn't as bad as what Ford did but they used tactics as well.
That's not what cali said. He said that Sordo has not slowed down this year to let Seb through. Which if i remember right is correct.
Yes, i understand You completely. Ford has done this as well. But this is sort of a another case, 2 rallies on a row when a second driver slows down + now also Latvala frm Stobart takes penalties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodeye
I do not remember that Citroen has used this sort of tactics this year. Maybe they would've done this as well when situation would've been opposite. We never know.
But accusing Citroen to pull tactics as this..... :eek:
Like some smarter guys in the past have said: " Best defence is attack!". Aren't you DJ attacking Citroen without a reason to defend Ford??
Correct. Also on Norway and Germany 2007 they didn't swap Bosse-Mikko. Which basicly made Bosse lose driver title (together with the two Japan-Ireland errors).Quote:
Originally Posted by jacko
I wasn't smiling, until now. :) Yes, Citroën played tactics this year but wow, it's a long shot as it has nothing to see with my initial post (#10) talking about team nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
Anyway, after digging it a bit, i now understand your humourus tongue in cheek. Sarcastic as you could expect from a Finn, i like it :up: .
Something different now. Like other people have pointed out, this is a radical change of tactics by Ford MSport.
Even though Wilson is due to provide solid results, it's clear that Ford Company has increased the pressure on MSport management.
Much more aggressive tactics looking out for all possible opportunities to bag even what could eventually be a fatal single point.
Because the WRC audience is so poor, if they, accidentally, happen to win one or both titles, they don't care about a small portion of fans who know how badly they did get them.
Nothing to compare with the economic impact of a "World Champions, 3 in a row", everywhere, advertising, stickers in the show rooms... The Ford glory for the mass !
Still unsportive and not an excuse though but simply their attempt to sell cars in a certain world conjuncture. The drivers are then caught between the Scylla and Charybdis to acheive this goal.
I don't watch the DTM much at all so I may be wrong, but aren't intra-team tactics also rife there between one manufacturers' different teams (ie. those running 2008, 2007, 2006 cars)? I always had the impression that the M1/M2 system in the WRC was introduced for a similar reason as was so in DTM; to increase the number of cars in the field when the number of participating works manufacturer squads is low, as was the case in the WRC in '06.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Technically, I do not see why "Ford cannot have it two ways" either (to MikeD)? An internet message board community won't stop them.
I'm not too fussed about whether a rule is introduced against team orders wherever they exactly resemble this situation or not. They have been a perennial part of motorsport in whichever form they assume. And as F1 has shown, anti-team orders rules are difficult to police. I don't recall Ferrari being punished after Brazil '07 for example. Ditto with achieving 'genuine independence' if there are any other WRC Fords or Citroens on the entry list at all. To me, these situations are just a fact of life in any motorsport, that's all.
I made a similar point earlier in this/ or another thread. Joe Public won't know what has happened - unlike in F1 were anything 'funny' is discussed in the papers/TV/Radio ad nauseum. One of the 'advantages' of being a minority sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karukera
Team orders are part of Motorsport - we all know that. And yes, it's hard to prove when they've happened - and therefore hard to enforce any rulings. However, this was totally blatant - Malcolm told everybody in an interview. How on earth is that allowed?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenMcNugget
Well, he obviously cannot be penalised if no relevant rule exists, which it seems there isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Personally I'd rather not open a can of worms by probing what team bosses say in interviews. What next, resorting to cheeky winks, lazy half-nods and grins instead to interviewers whenever they ask on the last day, "So will you be slowing down [insert name of driver playing Duval role here]?" It's still not easy to enforce anything.
Personally I'd rather they either have a cast-iron enforcable rule against all team orders full stop, however sneakily done (evidently not possible either), or not bother and just let the vagaries of motorsport be for once. Personally, I've had enough of F1's penchant for the inconsistent application of hazy rules...
Chicken McNugget raises a good point in that this whole thing reminded me of the DTM last year (back when I was still watching it). The problem stems from there being just two super powers in both sports.
The problem comes from Ford having a disproportionate amount of the cars in the field, and now that these cars are a competitive package, using them like pawns to move around and protect their chosen king (Mikko).
It was the usage of Latvala in a Stobart car that is angering people. Basic two-car team orders shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone. Although I can't condone what Ford did, it should not come as a surprise either.
Without M-Sport there would be a WRC entry of 7 at the next round in Japan. They are both good and bad for the sport, but I feel that Malcolm has become a victim of his own success. All the Focus WRC's are being built, serviced and shipped by M-Sport. They are all Malcolm's cars like it or not.
More to blame should be the rule-makers for allowing a monoploy over the top 8 to form too much. There is a lot of hate directed towards Ford, but I bet if the situation arose, and Loeb was SupeRallying back into the points and was 7th with Aava in sixth, you'd be naive to think they wouldn't switch places. I know they aren't the same team but PHsport exist due to the help of Citreon Sport.
My main point is this: Don't hate the player, hate the game.
you do realise that the drivers at stobart pay for the cars? if it wasn't M-sport we would have more citroens and more subarus.....and to be honest it would be a lot better than having M-sport around with the clown tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Citroën give Sorde just a slower car then Loeb and he is not allowed to go faster, maybe not this year but last year! Kronos had the sh!t Citroëns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
That is also about using cars from other teams. :rolleyes:
Any proofs to back your "story"? Source?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother John
HAHAHAHA! LOL! Please stop! :) :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother John
I think that all drivers has 'slow cars' with 100 bhp. Only Loeb has 3500 bhp car. That`s why he is a 4 time WR champion.
Just ask Duval when he was with Citroën and Stohl + Carlsson drivin at Kronos! :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Manu team and client (Kronos) are 2 different things, Like M-Sport & Stobart. So nothing but "ask Duval" so far.... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother John
As everyone here can say nonsense, I does that also. :s mokin:Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
A new advertisement video from Citroën
And Citroën C2 open doors for the future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi9Mo0dGcjA
Old Team orders from the past. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayYz-i_Bsv0
Malcolm Wilson Speaks!
Malcolm Wilson Q&A from WRC.com
Are you satisfied with your team’s performance in Corsica?
“From a results point of view it’s probably as good as we could hope for but yes, it’s been a very good rally for Ford. Again we had to employ some tactics at the end, and we have to say we’re relived they all worked out because it was pretty stressful. Fortunately everything went absolutely to plan. The guys did a great job, they were very professional about the whole thing and okay, there’s still a chance that both Championships are still alive, which is great news ahead of Japan.”
Why did you choose to use penalty time to swap places rather than slowing the cars on the final stage like you have done before?
“We wanted to do it in such a way that everybody knew what was happening before they got back to the final control. And at least the guys were driving flat out through the stages.”
Were you reluctant to involve Jari-Matti Latvala in the BP Ford team strategy?
“Yes, but I spoke to [Stobart Group CEO] Andrew Tinkler and he was very pleased to be able help support the Ford team, which made my life a little bit easier. All the guys did a great job and they acted very professionally.”
Mikko said he was against the use of team orders here - how did he react when you moved him up?
“It’s not an easy situation for anybody, whether you’re a driver or a team manager - and I’ve experienced it from both sides. But there was so much at stake today; both the drivers’ championship and the manufacturers’ championship. I think he would regret it if he were to win Japan and GB and lose out on the championship by one point.”
Were you pleased with Mikko’s performance on the rally?
“Absolutely - I was very happy with both drivers. In one sense with Sebastien we’re competing against probably one of the best drivers the World Rally Championship has ever seen and the great thing is we were on the pace on Friday to the point where Dani made a mistake. I think that proves we were putting him under a bit of pressure. The problem is I know how long it takes to develop a driver and I think it’s going to be very, very difficult for anybody to beat Sebastien anytime in the next five years - by which time he’ll still only be 40.”
http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk...20Wilson%20Q&A