It's time to screw Russia over

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What is your answer, then?

And don't forget that Churchill got voted out as soon as the war was over, and for good reasons, so he was no panacea of political excellence. Moving on, had those in the Cold War who advocated, for example, a tough response to the Berlin crisis of 1961 held sway, the leaders of the time feared nuclear war and with good reason. Thankfully, wiser counsels prevailed and they will surely do so now, for armed conflict with Russia is not the answer.

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Armed conflict? Who said we have to go to war with them?! I'm in no way advocating for WWIII.

What I meant to say is that the western powers should realize that every time that Russia does a "Georgia" or "Tchetchenia" we should not only condemn them because they don't even care about it.
We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

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Originally Posted by ioan

Armed conflict? Who said we have to go to war with them?! I'm in no way advocating for WWIII.

What I meant to say is that the western powers should realize that every time that Russia does a "Georgia" or "Tchetchenia" we should not only condemn them because they don't even care about it.
We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

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:up:

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Originally Posted by ioan

We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

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Looks nice on paper, but i dont think 1-2 countries can throw 1 member out from G8, also the olympic movement is not a political movment, and would not move the games for this reason, but countries can boycott the games if they want, but I dont think they would, else they would not be in China now. Where Russian companies operate i think is every countries individual issue, so that would not work so well either.

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Originally Posted by Eki

So you believe that his motive is the hope that Georgia would help Europe and NATO, and not the hope that Europe and NATO would help Georgia? I'm quite sure his motives are mostly selfish. He wants more firepower against Russia.

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Are you kidding? I hope so. :\

Ofcourse they want to be part of the EU and NATO because they would have plenty of advantages.
But to suggest that he id doing it for the sake of having more military power against Russia is stupid, simply because such a small country can't win a war against Russia, and nor the EU or the NATO will have a war with Russia either.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Looks nice on paper, but i dont think 1-2 countries can throw 1 member out from G8, also the olympic movement is not a political movment, and would not move the games for this reason, but countries can boycott the games if they want, but I dont think they would, else they would not be in China now. Where Russian companies operate i think is every countries individual issue, so that would not work so well either.

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Really? The G8 counts 7 countries + Russia, not 1 or 2, democratic countries that should punish violent behavior.
The IOC is not a political movement? Dream on.
As for the individual countries where Russian companies operate, well most of these countries are the Western countries, countries that are based on democracy and who's people are against the kind of action that Russia is taking at the moment.

Looking at you post I see the paralytic state of the West, people who have the power to do something but are so afraid to move one finger against those who are the arch enemies of democracy.

Tell me, what do you think we should do against Russia. And don't be afraid just because you get all your gas from the Russians!

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Originally Posted by Daniel

There's a time to love and a time to hate..

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No, that's insane. There's a need of a general equilibrum.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Weren't you on the forum complaining how the West wasn't there for you in your countrys time of need when the Russians were opressing the crap out of your country?
Double standards? :laugh: ..

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Exactly, if they didn't do that then why should they do it now? Is Georgia more important than other nations?
BTW, talking about double standards, weren't you explaining that at that time the west did the right thing? :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Daniel

It's simple. Russia's oil and gas is behind their resurgence. 15 years ago Russia was nothing. They couldn't have fought off an under 15's football team let alone a proper army. But thanks to the thirst in Europe for gas and oil they're now filthy rich and because their oil and gas is in such demand they can step on any toes they want and get away with it. Russia can turn off the gas and freeze you to death if they want. If Europe wants things to stay the way they are now we need to stop using oil and gas like we have an unlimited and consequence free supply of the stuff. I like my women with brown hair and my Russians queuing in the streets for bread and unable to fly their planes because they're frigging poor.:..

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It's not a thirst of oil and gas, it's a NEED. Without them the prosperous economies of the west will be nothing. Personally I had the back luck to freeze to death, even without a russian turning off of these utilities. It was so awful that the guy who took the decision to freeze us ( ironically, the reason was also " to stop our dependence of foreign resources ") ended with a lot of bullets in his head.
If Russia was nothing 15 years ago then what was it back in 1968 when Cechoslovakia was invaded? What did the " democratic countries " except from some criticism?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Laugh all you like. The stakes are much higher for you than I.

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Right. In the past, such typical westerner arrogance would have annoied me. Now all I can do is....laugh, and laugh and laugh. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by ioan

We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.).

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Are you sure these " punishments" are enough to change their foreign policy?

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Originally Posted by ioan

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

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A war is a war and many of them finished with a surprising winner. I have serious doubts that an european country alone or in a coalition can win a war against Russia, Anyway, a war takes a long time and a lot of human lives so even if you may be sure you'll win it's better to avoid it. That's why diplomacy exists.
About the nuclear war...Theoratically, nobody has the interest to ever use a nuclear weapon, however an army who has it is better to be avoided.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Those were not their own people, and if they were why were they in Georgia?!

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Let's not forget that things happened after Georgia attacked Ossetia. I bet that in that separatist country a lot of people have russian citizenship. Georgia is also a former SU country and I don't rule out a possible double citizenship of some guys.
BTW, when USA invaded Grenada the major justification for the invasion was the protection of American lives but the real reasons were of course different.

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Originally Posted by ioan

No really?!
Who puts them up there, and who keeps them up there, and who protects them KGB leaders?! That nation, with it's culture, because the culture of a nation isn't just their greatest and worldwide accepted artists, it's also the culture of the vodka drunken idiots!
You can't say that Rachmaninoff's art outweighs the other hundreds of millions of idiots lack of culture and intelligence.

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Ioane, Ioane, I thought you know a thing or two about the elections in that part of the world. And about the candidates, too.
Anyway, intersetng point of view about the drunkers, but remember that you yourself belong to a nation that is more than friendly with the glass and who usually end up their boozing with an axe in the neighbour's head or with the rape of an old lady. :laugh: .
Your views on art are weird ( to use an euphemism :laugh: ), but what sensiblility should I expect from a "martial " guy like you? Don't remember that I ever said that russians are the best ( as if art can be measured ), their art just appeal to my soul and a nation that could create such masterpieces can't be ignored.
Lack of culture and intelligence is in fact a characteristic for the masses of a lot of civilised countries and just because you like to drink vodka it doesn't mean you're necessarily stupid. Neither whiskey nor beer would make you smarter. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Exactly, if they didn't do that then why should they do it now? Is Georgia more important than other nations?
BTW, talking about double standards, weren't you explaining that at that time the west did the right thing? :laugh:

It's not a thirst of oil and gas, it's a NEED. Without them the prosperous economies of the west will be nothing. Personally I had the back luck to freeze to death, even without a russian turning off of these utilities. It was so awful that the guy who took the decision to freeze us ( ironically, the reason was also " to stop our dependence of foreign resources ") ended with a lot of bullets in his head.
If Russia was nothing 15 years ago then what was it back in 1968 when Cechoslovakia was invaded? What did the " democratic countries " except from some criticism?

Right. In the past, such typical westerner arrogance would have annoied me. Now all I can do is....laugh, and laugh and laugh. :laugh:

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As has been pointed out time and time again that at the end of WW2 the allies - Russia didn't have the strength to go fighting Russia and pushing them back to Moscow. Then there was this thing called the "Cold War" which involved the USSR and the US and a few other countries having nuclear weapons so the consequences of the US walking in and "liberating" you would have been pretty dire. But glossing over truths like this is fine for you I guess :rolleyes:

Thirst or need for oil.... whatever. It's the same thing. If you'd taken the time to read my post you would see that it doesn't need to be like this. If enough money is invested in renewables and there is a reduction in the amount of energy people waste the NEED for oil and gas will be a lot less and Russia won't be so pumped full of cash. But if your feelings towards Russia are in equilibrium then send your money Eastwards. I'm sure Russia will repay you handsomely :rolleyes: Yet again it would be a dumbarse move for the west to go head to head with Russia in a war, any solution will be one that involves economic sanctions and squeezing the money out of Russia. But if you prefer a nuclear war I'm sure that could also be arranged :)

You're a strange one. In previous threads you went on about the horrors of Soviet occupation. Yet now you're going on about my arrogance. Fine, I'm being arrogant! Of what consequence is this to you? Surely like Ioan you should be worried a bit more about things going back to the way they used to be? If something nasty happens I'll be off to Australia so fast, sadly you probably don't have that option so I hope your leaders aren't as ignorant of the clear and present danger as you are.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Armed conflict? Who said we have to go to war with them?! I'm in no way advocating for WWIII.

What I meant to say is that the western powers should realize that every time that Russia does a "Georgia" or "Tchetchenia" we should not only condemn them because they don't even care about it.
We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

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:up:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Those were not their own people, and if they were why were they in Georgia?!
What about China attacking your country when they judge that some of the chines immigrants are in some kind of danger.

Get your head straight, Russia was flexing it's muscles and waiting to see if their whores (i.e the European countries) will dare to stand up again. And they were right, we weren't strong enough.

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Its my understanding that South Ossetia is a breakaway region. Georgia went in to try and re-take control of this region, starting the conflict.

Russia had to react as it had its peacekeeping forces in South Ossetian under an agreement in 1992.

Even the Human Rights Watch have said that eye-witness accounts lead to Georgian fire causing much of the damage in Tskhinvali.

In this instance, Russia is only guilty of being crap at playing the media game.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Its my understanding that South Ossetia is a breakaway region. Georgia went in to try and re-take control of this region, starting the conflict.

Russia had to react as it had its peacekeeping forces in South Ossetian under an agreement in 1992.

Even the Human Rights Watch have said that eye-witness accounts lead to Georgian fire causing much of the damage in Tskhinvali.

In this instance, Russia is only guilty of being crap at playing the media game.

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Surely there's more than meet the eye.

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Surely there's more than meet the eye.

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You may be right. I'm not going to pretend I know the inside out of this story, or that I'm an expect on international issues (albeit I do take an interest).

But thats the facts laid down straight and in a simple form. On paper to me it looks like Russia is in the right, but people think they're wrong because of the bad media coverage they've had, led by the USA.

Whether Russia has an alterative motive, who knows, they probably do to be fair, but nothing will change the fact that Georgia started it by trying to take control of the region. And surely they'd have known Russia would have had to react whilst they had troops there (through an agreement Georgia accepted).

I'm sorry but where do you live PolePosition ? In what country?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Really? The G8 counts 7 countries + Russia, not 1 or 2, democratic countries that should punish violent behavior.
The IOC is not a political movement? Dream on.
As for the individual countries where Russian companies operate, well most of these countries are the Western countries, countries that are based on democracy and who's people are against the kind of action that Russia is taking at the moment.

Looking at you post I see the paralytic state of the West, people who have the power to do something but are so afraid to move one finger against those who are the arch enemies of democracy.

Tell me, what do you think we should do against Russia. And don't be afraid just because you get all your gas from the Russians!

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True 7+russia, but a few of those 7 depends on russian energy, well we see soon if they move the olympics, i say they wont do it.
Paralytic state of the west? Dont know about that, but im sure we will look after our own interest, like all the other countries will do.
I think we should use diplomacy to avoid conflicts, Im a fraid only of junkies and menthally ill people, because they are unpredictable, also I dont use gas anywhere. You seem to have big expectations about the west, some realism never hurts, at the end all countries look at their own intrest, and in Georgia there is very little to gain for the west.

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

I'm sorry but where do you live PolePosition ? In what country?

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I live in the UK :) .

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Are you sure these " punishments" are enough to change their foreign policy?

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You might bet.
They are flexing their muscles and are expecting to see what we do about it. If we do nothing they'll do it again on a bigger scale. If we do something, like economical measures, they will know that we are not afraid of them.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Let's not forget that things happened after Georgia attacked Ossetia. I bet that in that separatist country a lot of people have russian citizenship. Georgia is also a former SU country and I don't rule out a possible double citizenship of some guys.
BTW, when USA invaded Grenada the major justification for the invasion was the protection of American lives but the real reasons were of course different.

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I know what happened, and it happened that Osetians were attacking villages where the majority of the inhabitants were Georgians, and did this for quite some time. This was clearly their bid to produce a military confrontation with the Georgian Militia, and it ultimately happened, and than all of a sudden the Russians were ready to jump in, what a coincidence! ;)

And I condemn any country that get's involved in military actions in another sovereign country without having a UNO decision for it.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Ioane, Ioane, I thought you know a thing or two about the elections in that part of the world. And about the candidates, too.

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That doesn't change the fact that the Russians as a whole don't do anything to change things into better.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Anyway, intersetng point of view about the drunkers, but remember that you yourself belong to a nation that is more than friendly with the glass and who usually end up their boozing with an axe in the neighbour's head or with the rape of an old lady. :laugh: .

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You see this is exactly why I left the country 8 years ago and I do not intend to go back.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Your views on art are weird ( to use an euphemism :laugh: ), but what sensiblility should I expect from a "martial " guy like you? Don't remember that I ever said that russians are the best ( as if art can be measured ), their art just appeal to my soul and a nation that could create such masterpieces can't be ignored.

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I appreciate art a lot, however I do not confound the art of a few individuals with the general lack of culture of the rest of a nation.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Lack of culture and intelligence is in fact a characteristic for the masses of a lot of civilised countries and just because you like to drink vodka it doesn't mean you're necessarily stupid. Neither whiskey nor beer would make you smarter. :laugh:

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The difference, in this case, is in the percentage of drunkards reported to the whole population.

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Originally Posted by ioan

You might bet.
They are flexing their muscles and are expecting to see what we do about it. If we do nothing they'll do it again on a bigger scale. If we do something, like economical measures, they will know that we are not afraid of them.

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It is quite worrying. There are parallels for this in history, especially where Germany made small moves to see what the world would do, and they did nothing, which left the door open for more.

Remember Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia was supposely to protect the German population there.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

You're a strange one. In previous threads you went on about the horrors of Soviet occupation. Yet now you're going on about my arrogance. Fine, I'm being arrogant! Of what consequence is this to you? Surely like Ioan you should be worried a bit more about things going back to the way they used to be? If something nasty happens I'll be off to Australia so fast, sadly you probably don't have that option so I hope your leaders aren't as ignorant of the clear and present danger as you are.

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I have the option to leave as well: I'm also a EU citizen , I also have a passport and I also saved some white money for black days. But running away is not my style, I'm "strange "and "ignorant" but not a coward.
Of course I worry about what happens, Russia was never a friendly neighbour but we've learned a bit from history about how to cope with its ambitions in the region. And the best solution is to don't transgrass on its tail if it's not the case, a lesson that Georgia should have known. Just because we have bad memories about russian occupation we try to avoid that this thing will happen again, that's why we joined NATO despite the fact that costs are huge, that's why in our foreign policy we look after the national interest and don't venture in declarations. We have our own problems related to Moldova and the separatist republic of Transnistria. Time and diplomacy will solve them but we'll never be so crazy to launch an attack, not even a verbal one against Russia.
I remember that in my ignorance I pulled the alarm signal when guys like you were happy to salute Kosovo's independence, I warned you about a lot of separatist republics from the ex-soviet space that will arise problems in the future and now you may see the results. And it was for the first time when I agreed with my leaders who took the wise decision to reject recognition.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

well we see soon if they move the olympics, i say they wont do it.

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I agree with you, they don't have the balls to do it.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Paralytic state of the west? Dont know about that, but im sure we will look after our own interest, like all the other countries will do.

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Well, Georgia is the country through which the only non-Russian oil pipe passes towards Europe. The fact that the oil pipe was damaged during this little Russian escapade should push us to look after our interests a bit more.

And BTW the other non-Russian pipeline that was planed for the near future is going to pass through Georgia too. So again, we have all the interest to keep the country free.

As you see there are plenty of motives to help Georgia only to help ourselves by becoming less dependent of the Russian Gas and Oil, still we do nothing.
I call that paralysis!

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Originally Posted by Tomi

I think we should use diplomacy to avoid conflicts,

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Sure we should. But that doesn't mean that we should kiss their backsides instead of putting some economical and social pressure on them.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

also I dont use gas anywhere.

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You don't but your country does, for sure, and it's Russian gas. ;)

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Originally Posted by Tomi

You seem to have big expectations about the west, some realism never hurts, at the end all countries look at their own intrest, and in Georgia there is very little to gain for the west.

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How wrong, see above about the pipelines that pass through Georgia.
You see this is the nice part of a discussion, it gives you informations that you didn't know. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mark

It is quite worrying. There are parallels for this in history, especially where Germany made small moves to see what the world would do, and they did nothing, which left the door open for more.

Remember Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia was supposely to protect the German population there.

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Yep, I watched a very detailed documentary movie about Hitler only a few months ago.

Things look worryingly alike.

PS: There was also the part about how they were the hosts of Olympic Games shortly before the war. Russia will have theirs in a few years too.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I have the option to leave as well: I'm also a EU citizen , I also have a passport and I also saved some white money for black days. But running away is not my style, I'm "strange "and "ignorant" but not a coward.
Of course I worry about what happens, Russia was never a friendly neighbour but we've learned a bit from history about how to cope with its ambitions in the region. And the best solution is to don't transgrass on its tail if it's not the case, a lesson that Georgia should have known. Just because we have bad memories about russian occupation we try to avoid that this thing will happen again, that's why we joined NATO despite the fact that costs are huge, that's why in our foreign policy we look after the national interest and don't venture in declarations. We have our own problems related to Moldova and the separatist republic of Transnistria. Time and diplomacy will solve them but we'll never be so crazy to launch an attack, not even a verbal one against Russia.
I remember that in my ignorance I pulled the alarm signal when guys like you were happy to salute Kosovo's independence, I warned you about a lot of separatist republics from the ex-soviet space that will arise problems in the future and now you may see the results. And it was for the first time when I agreed with my leaders who took the wise decision to reject recognition.

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You see, Romania walked on Russia tail in the past, and they couldn't do nothing about it.

Remember what happened in Prague? When the Russian tanks invaded Tchechoslovakia? When all the Communist countries but one were on the Soviet side?

That one country who was against them was Romania. As an answer they threatened us with military action, and I have it from good sources that there was a little confrontation on our eastern border, and they left as soon as they realized that they had little chance to win it.

Russia never had the military power to threaten the world, not even to threaten Europe. However now they found a new, stronger weapon, energy!

It's up to us all to do what is humanly possible to lessen our dependence on the Russian energy, and than turn our backs on them economically.
They have to understand that the time of the Czars, when they were dreaming of world domination has ended 100 years ago.

We need to show determination.

Why do you think that Sarkozy was the first European leader to criticize them? Because France is not as dependent on Russian energy as the rest of the European countries.
Germany is heavily dependent and it took them more than a week to say something about the matter, no doubt after having Putin's agreement, and this is sad.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Russia will have theirs in a few years too.

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And you know this how?

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Originally Posted by ioan

As you see there are plenty of motives to help Georgia only to help ourselves by becoming less dependent of the Russian Gas and Oil, still we do nothing.
I call that paralysis!

How wrong, see above about the pipelines that pass through Georgia.
You see this is the nice part of a discussion, it gives you informations that you didn't know. ;)

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We have been working for some years already to become independent of russian energy, dont know what others has done.

I knew about the pipeline, but i dont think its enough to largen the conflict, there will be propably some cosmetic meaninless sanctions but thats it.

Ok, so clearly everyone feels Russia is in the wrong.

Take into account Russia had peacekeeping troops in this region, withs Georgia's consent. And Georgia decided to try and take this region.

What should Russia have done in everyones eyes?

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Ok, so clearly everyone feels Russia is in the wrong.

Take into account Russia had peacekeeping troops in this region, withs Georgia's consent. And Georgia decided to try and take this region.

What should Russia have done in everyones eyes?

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Those regions were not independent region that Georgia decided to take over, those are separatist regions that were not granted independence by anyone but themselves, not even by the Russians.

And there are Georgians living in those regions too, and those were under fire from the Osetian separatists.

So if we decide to put facts on the table than it's fair to put them all, not just those who support a certain POV.

And if Russia was only there for peace keeping in those 2 regions, than why did they feel the urge to go deep into Georgia, attacking and destroying the town of Gori, also attacking Tbilissi. Killing a few journalists and so on?! Do you call that peace keeping?! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Ok, so clearly everyone feels Russia is in the wrong.

Take into account Russia had peacekeeping troops in this region, withs Georgia's consent. And Georgia decided to try and take this region.

What should Russia have done in everyones eyes?

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Is this the first time you've watched the news since the Berlin wall came down? :confused:

Nobody is innocent in the conflict. Georgia just repeated a brutal crackdown on a secessionist region that Russia did earlier in Chechnya. Russia repeated the intervention to "save the civilians" that the U.S. previously did in Kosovo. Both sides look ugly. It's just the fact that Georgia's arrogance and aggression will not hurt the world as much as Russia's.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Those regions were not independent region that Georgia decided to take over, those are separatist regions that were not granted independence by anyone but themselves, not even by the Russians.

And there are Georgians living in those regions too, and those were under fire from the Osetian separatists.

So if we decide to put facts on the table than it's fair to put them all, not just those who support a certain POV.

And if Russia was only there for peace keeping in those 2 regions, than why did they feel the urge to go deep into Georgia, attacking and destroying the town of Gori, also attacking Tbilissi. Killing a few journalists and so on?! Do you call that peace keeping?! :rolleyes:

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Ioan, I'm not saying Russia is the innocent party here. I'm just saying its not all poor Georgia and the baddie Russia.

They're both guilty parties, all three including the SO troops.

But I'm just looking at the facts, Georgia decided to get involved, this put 70,000 odd Russian civilians at risk, they were hardly going to let this happen without taking any action. And presumably Georgia knew this, therefore provoking the conflict.

Why have Russia gone in so deep? My understand is that they've gone into Georgia to take control of certain strategic towns (such as Tbilissi) to block off any Georgian troops entering SO from the eastern and western side.

That would make sense, but again, I stress, its highly likely they have other motives. But I'm just looking at the facts, and while Russia are not innocent, far from it, Georgia are more to blame than Russia, yet only Russia is getting the bad press.

So while I understand everyone's concerns, I'm just slightly puzzled as to why no one is laying into Georgia? I'm also slightly dismayed, as I am guessing much of this is because of the media coverage, and how unfair and biased the media is and influential on peoples opinions :(

I don't see how can the USA say stuff like, Russia is bullying Georgia, yet the USA invaded IRAQ, killed many more people than Russia did in Georgia, screwed up things much more and yet, it's ok for the USA to do what they do, but when someone else does it, it's not ok.

Surely wars aren't a nice thing, but I'm sick of this USA World domination view that everyone must respect, I'm glad that there are still countries in this world who don't have to obey the mighty USA.

and what about the initial attack launch by Georgia which killed people in the villages which were located in the breakaway regions? You could say what kind of a country launches an attack on it's own territory and its own people?

There is a lot more to this, but most people will see this on their news which is at the end controlled by the US propaganda machine, trying to make the Russian's look bad. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they are doing nice things, but I think people need to take a different view to this instead of just being spoon fed by the media.

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Originally Posted by ioan

They are flexing their muscles and are expecting to see what we do about it. If we do nothing they'll do it again on a bigger scale. If we do something, like economical measures, they will know that we are not afraid of them..

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The aren't expecting anything because they already know nobody would dare to take economical measures against them. They're only showing what we'll get if we don't behave ourselves.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I know what happened, and it happened that Osetians were attacking villages where the majority of the inhabitants were Georgians, and did this for quite some time. This was clearly their bid to produce a military confrontation with the Georgian Militia, and it ultimately happened, and than all of a sudden the Russians were ready to jump in, what a coincidence! ;) ..

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Well, with some different "belligerent forces" the script was similar in former Yugoslavia.

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Originally Posted by ioan

And I condemn any country that get's involved in military actions in another sovereign country without having a UNO decision for it. ..

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Really? Don't remember your proposal for economic measures against USA and its allies at Iraq's invasion. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by ioan

That doesn't change the fact that the Russians as a whole don't do anything to change things into better...

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You know it takes at least 20 years. :laugh: To pick up the right leader you need a base of selection. Good people aren't interested in politics.

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Originally Posted by ioan

You see this is exactly why I left the country 8 years ago and I do not intend to go back....

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Nobody leaves a country because his fellow men drink too much. Be honest and say that you left for money. That's why everybody leaves.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I appreciate art a lot, however I do not confound the art of a few individuals with the general lack of culture of the rest of a nation.....

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...but the authors are also the expression of a certain spirituality. Even the characters of a literary work are inspired by the contemporary people. And russian characters are really memorable

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Originally Posted by ioan

The difference, in this case, is in the percentage of drunkards reported to the whole population.

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Sometimes british football teams have to face teams from Bucharest and their fans acompany them. I must confess I've never seen a larger crowd of drunk people at early hours.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Nobody leaves a country because his fellow men drink too much. Be honest and say that you left for money. That's why everybody leaves.

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That's bullcrap, I could have a very high pay in Romania any day, I could live like a king from a financial POV, but I'm not interested to live my whole life with people who's intellectual and social level is lower than that of a stray dog.
Don't get me wrong, there are exceptional people in Romania too, but they are way to few compared to the whole.

You see there is more to life than just money, but you need to see the bigger picture than that of Bucharest in order to understand that. ;)

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Originally Posted by N

I don't see how can the USA say stuff like, Russia is bullying Georgia, yet the USA invaded IRAQ, killed many more people than Russia did in Georgia, screwed up things much more and yet, it's ok for the USA to do what they do, but when someone else does it, it's not ok.

Surely wars aren't a nice thing, but I'm sick of this USA World domination view that everyone must respect, I'm glad that there are still countries in this world who don't have to obey the mighty USA.

and what about the initial attack launch by Georgia which killed people in the villages which were located in the breakaway regions? You could say what kind of a country launches an attack on it's own territory and its own people?

There is a lot more to this, but most people will see this on their news which is at the end controlled by the US propaganda machine, trying to make the Russian's look bad. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they are doing nice things, but I think people need to take a different view to this instead of just being spoon fed by the media.

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Are they paying you a lot for this pro-russian propaganda?

Are you claiming that Russia is keeping up the peace in the region while attacking a sovereign country and destroying it?!

Try this stuff on some Russian site, where people would believe it.

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Originally Posted by ioan

That one country who was against them was Romania. As an answer they threatened us with military action, and I have it from good sources that there was a little confrontation on our eastern border, and they left as soon as they realized that they had little chance to win it..

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No offence but I think that you took for granted one of those jokes about Radio Erevan. Anyway, it was probably a good joke as I can't stop laughing at the thought of the red army scared by our glorious army with its guns from the independence war.
When I have time I'll tell you some funny facts about the days of 1989 revolution. About how some people in Bucharest reacted when we were announced that FSN asked for help from Moscow.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Russia never had the military power to threaten the world, not even to threaten Europe.

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Then it's a shame it could never be defeated. And it's awful that despite its weakness managed to spread the falimentary ideal of communism on half of Europe.

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Originally Posted by ioan

It's up to us all to do what is humanly possible to lessen our dependence on the Russian energy, and than turn our backs on them economically.
They have to understand that the time of the Czars, when they were dreaming of world domination has ended 100 years ago.
We need to show determination.

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Another Uncle's Nick reincarnation.... Catchy slogans without practical possibilities.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Why do you think that Sarkozy was the first European leader to criticize them? Because France is not as dependent on Russian energy as the rest of the European countries..

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In my opinion because France is dreaming to have again a leading role in Europe.

hehe, no I'm not paid to write this stuff, this is just my personal opinion and I just turned on the TV and saw that live conference from NATO and a journalist asked, will Georgia join NATO one day and the answer was yes. As expected, this is an important position for the USA, since Georgia is close to the middle east and Russia and more importantly has the oil pipeline from Caspian Sea.

It's sad the the new cold war battlefield between USA and Russia is in Georgia, but this is always the case that they take the war somewhere away from home.

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Originally Posted by N

I don't see how can the USA say stuff like, Russia is bullying Georgia, yet the USA invaded IRAQ, killed many more people than Russia did in Georgia, screwed up things much more and yet, it's ok for the USA to do what they do, but when someone else does it, it's not ok.

Surely wars aren't a nice thing, but I'm sick of this USA World domination view that everyone must respect, I'm glad that there are still countries in this world who don't have to obey the mighty USA.

and what about the initial attack launch by Georgia which killed people in the villages which were located in the breakaway regions? You could say what kind of a country launches an attack on it's own territory and its own people?

There is a lot more to this, but most people will see this on their news which is at the end controlled by the US propaganda machine, trying to make the Russian's look bad. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they are doing nice things, but I think people need to take a different view to this instead of just being spoon fed by the media.

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That sums up exactly how I feel!! Top post :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's bullcrap, I could have a very high pay in Romania any day, I could live like a king from a financial POV, but I'm not interested to live my whole life with people who's intellectual and social level is lower than that of a stray dog. ;)

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That's what I call a real patriot! Aferim, Ioane maica....Fighting for democracy, human rights, freedom of Georgia but dispraising his own nation.
You reached such a high ( ?!!? ) intellectual level ( ironically, with a little help of romanian schools ) that you can't live with the plebe.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Don't get me wrong, there are exceptional people in Romania too, but they are way to few compared to the whole.. ;)

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Noooo....I don't get you wrong. I imagine yourself as a sort of Emil Cioran or Eugen Ionesco in a french exile. :laugh:
But as kings aren't paid I still don't believe you.

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Originally Posted by ioan

You see there is more to life than just money, but you need to see the bigger picture than that of Bucharest in order to understand that. ;)

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Yeah, for the first time I agree with you: it's more than just money. It's a gipsyland but it's mine and I want to survive here even if I'll always be a " gadjo".

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

In my opinion because France is dreaming to have again a leading role in Europe.

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Agree, also its France 6 months now, so he is the one who is supposed to take stand.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

That's what I call a real patriot! Aferim, Ioane maica....Fighting for democracy, human rights, freedom of Georgia but dispraising his own nation.
You reached such a high ( ?!!? ) intellectual level ( ironically, with a little help of romanian schools ) that you can't live with the plebe.

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You have to ask yourself why others can't reach the same level in the same schools. Ironically it's not the school that is most important, it's the individual.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Noooo....I don't get you wrong. I imagine yourself as a sort of Emil Cioran or Eugen Ionesco in a french exile. :laugh:

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Well, I'm not a philosopher nor an artist! ;)

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Yeah, for the first time I agree with you: it's more than just money. It's a gipsyland but it's mine and I want to survive here even if I'll always be a " gadjo".

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I love my family and the land where I grew up, and that is the only reason I go back once a year (I just came back last Sunday), but I can't stand that society for more than a week (and I'm not even talking about Bucharest, I'm talking about a little charming Transylvanian town).

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Originally Posted by ioan

You have to ask yourself why others can't reach the same level in the same schools. Ironically it's not the school that is most important, it's the individual.)

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But in every country there are kids who learn and kids who don't and leave the school very early. No offence but even the US people aren't quite strong at general knowledge. In a jokey way, just show me a country except ours where all the crap pop singers have graduated law, psychology, political sciences, theatre, film academy and have 2-3 masters.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Well, I'm not a philosopher nor an artist! ;) .)

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I know but when you keep talking about your intellectual level you act as if you are one of them. Isn't your nose too high?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ioan

I love my family and the land where I grew up, and that is the only reason I go back once a year (I just came back last Sunday), but I can't stand that society for more than a week (and I'm not even talking about Bucharest, I'm talking about a little charming Transylvanian town).

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Now, no offence, but you suffer of provincial frustration. I hate guys like you who come back and everything is stinking for them. The "society "should be your family and friends, you grew with them, they should be like you.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

And you know this how?

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I thought it was common knowledge that the 2014 Winter Olympic games will be held in Russia.