Is Sebastien Bourdais that bad?

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10th August 2008, 16:38
Jag_Warrior

Jacques actually kicked butt in his first year too... he was just edged out by his teammate, Damon Hill, for the WDC in his rookie year. Jacques brought many of the things he learned in CART with him to F1. Like Montoya later on, his ability to perform on cold(er) fresh tires amazed the team. He also brought with him certain preferences for wing angles and front end setups that they apparently hadn't thought of. I'm not sure that Bourdais brought any of that to F1 from CCWS, since by the end it was so spec in nature and so far behind F1 in terms of technology and engineering. I don't rate Bourdais as high as some, since I think he and Newman-Haas beat a lot of weak competition. I do like and respect Bourdais though. But he didn't roll over any drivers of the Montoya, Moore or Zanardi caliber. He was very good and made the best of his equipment. I just think he smacked around some weak kittens and that made him look better than he was. It's really too bad that Allmendinger left. Those two seemed to be well matched. Sort of like Bourdais and Vettel.

I agree that Villeneuve went out on a down note, but most of them do. They hang on too long. I think his biggest mistake was sticking with Pollack for as long as he did.
10th August 2008, 19:08
garyshell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo

I'd argue that Villeneuve never really 'showed well' in F1, despite winning the championship. He did well in a very good car for one year but apart from that he left F1 under a cloud of underacheivement. I would certainly rate Bourdais above JV as an F1 driver, even if we haven't seen it yet :)

JV left F1 under a cloud of driving a car that was a total piece of crap, for a completely disfunctional team that has yet to get the car or its own act together.

You are a tough audience, if winning the championship in your second year after being runner up in his rookie season is not enough for you to say someone "showed well" then pray tell what is???

Gary
10th August 2008, 19:52
CCWS77

Quote:

he hasn't had to adapt to having a losing combination.

You adapt to a losing combination by correcting what needs to be changed. This notion that you have to learn to drive an inferior car because you will never have a car as good as others is a flaw in the philosophy of F1. You don't learn that in other series because that is stupid and not what racing competition should be about.

Quote:

To think that the team will spend millions just because one bloke 'who should be doing better' doesn't like the car is a joke.

Blaming that difference on one driver is deflection and spin. Lets face it Vettel will not be winning any time soon either. If you like F1 just because they are the fastest in the world that if fine. That does not mean it does not have flaws and is doing everything the right way.
11th August 2008, 02:54
Mad_Hatter

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCWS77

You adapt to a losing combination by correcting what needs to be changed. This notion that you have to learn to drive an inferior car because you will never have a car as good as others is a flaw in the philosophy of F1. You don't learn that in other series because that is stupid and not what racing competition should be about.

That's not a flaw in f1 it's part of racing competition. All Racing. In SCCA World Challenge the guys with the Porsches have to take out wing because they are not as fast as the Corvettes and Vipers in a straight line. The drivers will have to deal with that understeer. In Champ Car when DaMatta switched to Rusport it took time for him to adapt to their suspension setup, supposedly. Not an f1 thing it's a competition thing. Teams don't have infinite resources. STR does not have millions of extra dollars to change everything about its chassis and aero on one car. Hell, Red Bull Racing gives them their car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCWS77

Blaming that difference on one driver is deflection and spin.

The spin is in saying he shouldn't have to learn to drive what he's given.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCWS77

If you like F1 just because they are the fastest in the world that if fine. That does not mean it does not have flaws and is doing everything the right way.

Are you drinking or something? It's cool if you are, I've typed(but said alot more) stupid stuff drunk too.
11th August 2008, 12:56
nigelred5

Seb's not that bad, but I've never been convinced he is nearly as good as some feel he is either. Take those same years in any other car on the CC grid, and I might give him 1 championship.
12th August 2008, 13:00
ZzZzZz

Quote:

Originally Posted by garyshell

JV left F1 under a cloud of driving a car that was a total piece of crap, for a completely dysfunctional team that has yet to get the car or its own act together.

You are a tough audience, if winning the championship in your second year after being runner up in his rookie season is not enough for you to say someone "showed well" then pray tell what is???

Gary

Well, that was at BAR. He was on the wrong side of internal team politics and suffered from that. He probably held on so long because his contract was so lucrative.

The last thing he did was help develop the BMW Sauber.. He was apparently quite helpful. One his job was done, they had no need to retain such a well paid employee.
12th August 2008, 13:19
ShiftingGears

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCWS77

You adapt to a losing combination by correcting what needs to be changed.

By his own admission:

"Sebastian is better at adapting to it"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69748

He is correcting what needs to be changed.
12th August 2008, 17:02
garyshell

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzZzZz

Well, that was at BAR. He was on the wrong side of internal team politics and suffered from that. He probably held on so long because his contract was so lucrative.

The last thing he did was help develop the BMW Sauber.. He was apparently quite helpful. One his job was done, they had no need to retain such a well paid employee.

Yep BAR was what I was thinking about. I forgot about the stint at Sauber. Much like I bet Jacques would like to forget the stint at BAR.

Gary
13th August 2008, 18:49
pits4me

Quote:

Originally Posted by underpowered

I am getting frustrated with watching Sebastien Bourdais do so poorly in F1.

He cant be that bad....can he?

The trouble with F1 is how can you really compare who's having a bad season or not. We're were having similar discussions about Scott Speed during his TOD with STR.

Vettel is the more seasoned of the two Seb's with much more F1 experience particularly running on the grooved Bridgestones. Reserve driver for BMW Sauber (2006) must account for something. He's adapting to the loss of traction control and getting back to form.

SB has had some very good outings that turned into DNF's. I think it to early to group him into the Andretti, Zanardi scenario. He really belongs in the Renault camp instead of Alonso who's not there for the best interest of the team.
14th August 2008, 15:32
bblocker68

+1 for Seabass needing to go to Renault. They would treat their "home town boy" very well. Unfortunately, Seb had a falling out with Flav when negotiating a contract coming out of F3000. That was part of what led him to Champcar. I'd love to see him take Fred or Nelshino's seat next year.
14th August 2008, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pits4me

He really belongs in the Renault camp instead of Alonso who's not there for the best interest of the team.

Why would Renault want somebody who can't come to terms with a car, the Toro Rosso, which is being driven better and to better results by somebody else?

Alonso, whilst not back at Renault for the long haul, is totally proven, knows how to work with the team and is Renault's best bet.

Bourdais had the chance to be in Alonso's seat once before....he didn't take it.

Also, if you had any actual knowledge, you would know that Renault's pro-French policy of the 1980's blew up horribly in their face with Alain Prost. There is no way on earth that Renault would risk putting a sub-par Frenchman into one of their cars now since the French press would crucify them, not the driver.
14th August 2008, 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by garyshell

Much like I bet Jacques would like to forget the stint at BAR.

Gary

He might, but I bet his accountant has fond memories.
14th August 2008, 18:11
garyshell

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

He might, but I bet his accountant has fond memories.

And his manager!

Gary
15th August 2008, 03:49
CCWS77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

That's not a flaw in f1 it's part of racing competition. All Racing. In SCCA World Challenge the guys with the Porsches have to take out wing because they are not as fast as the Corvettes and Vipers in a straight line. The drivers will have to deal with that understeer.

What if the Porshe driver wants to take out wing and the team says no we cant this car wasnt made to run like that just learn to drive it as it is? By all accounts including Vettel's that is what they told bourdais. The idea a driver has to just learn to live with that is crazy. If you take that postion then the traditional idea of a driver even learning how to setup a car is a meaningless waste of time since it will be given to them. There is a theoretical best setup according to the laws of physics which probably could be figured out by computer and lab testing with no driver input. Just use that then and the driver just has to becomes a robot that can drive anything. Fun?
15th August 2008, 04:35
bravefish

Also, if you had any actual knowledge, you would know that Renault's pro-French policy of the 1980's blew up horribly in their face with Alain Prost. There is no way on earth that Renault would risk putting a sub-par Frenchman into one of their cars now since the French press would crucify them, not the driver.[/QUOTE]

Mr 'all knowledgeable Tamburello' - what a load of bollocks - things in F1 turn on their head in a heartbeat and that was over 20 years ago !

That whole scenario must have affected Alain Prost so much that he didnt decide to run Olivier Panis in his own team...

Can you tell me who was rubbishing that ploy one day in atrocious conditions when a certain blue French car covered in French sponsorship driver by a French driver won the Monaco GP ????

A French driver in a Renault would be brilliant. The French media would love it ! Just like the Italian media do with Italian Ferrari drivers etc etc

Seabass is hardly sub par - in fact he's a very good driver and would compliment any team given time and development - the issue is with the Toro Rosso - its a heap of crap.
15th August 2008, 07:30
ShiftingGears

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravefish

A French driver in a Renault would be brilliant.

I agree.

Sebastian Loeb to F1. You heard it here first.

...Why would Renault want a driver who can't beat his teammate in a backmarker team?
15th August 2008, 08:46
Mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzZzZz

Some seem to give in if the driver fights enough, such as with Jacques Villeneueve at Williams, where his input, once they listened, helped the team.

Yep, JV was all at sea when he first joined the Williams team (finishing a lap down at Monaco for example), mostly because they overruled him on the setup, bascially saying having a car that stiff would be crazy. But eventually they gave up and said "do what you want", he did, and then went on to challenge for the world championship until the final race.
15th August 2008, 13:35
F1boat

Seb is a very good driver, his problem is that the car is bad and that Vettel might be even better. I think that his CCWS titles are not as impressive as the IRL championship winners or the old CART champions, but still he is a great driver.
15th August 2008, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravefish

A French driver in a Renault would be brilliant. The French media would love it ! Just like the Italian media do with Italian Ferrari drivers etc etc

Q - And the last Italian to have a full-time race seat contract for Ferrari was?

A - Ivan Capelli. The car was a dog and the Italian press had a field day. Ferrari have avoided an Italian ever since.

Prost (who wasn't the owner of Ligier when Panis won the Monaco GP but don't let little snippets of facts ruin your argument) ran Panis and then Alesi, both Frenchman, yet still his team went into receivership.

So much for the power of the French press.

Had they been as thrilled by the positioning of a Frenchman in a French car as you claim, then there would have been no problem for Alain to find the necessary sponsorship to replace the state-owned tobacco sponsor.
15th August 2008, 21:17
bravefish

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

Q - And the last Italian to have a full-time race seat contract for Ferrari was?

A - Ivan Capelli. The car was a dog and the Italian press had a field day. Ferrari have avoided an Italian ever since.

Prost (who wasn't the owner of Ligier when Panis won the Monaco GP but don't let little snippets of facts ruin your argument) ran Panis and then Alesi, both Frenchman, yet still his team went into receivership.

So much for the power of the French press.

Had they been as thrilled by the positioning of a Frenchman in a French car as you claim, then there would have been no problem for Alain to find the necessary sponsorship to replace the state-owned tobacco sponsor.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You cant beat patriotic pride and any time a driver of the same nationality as the team gets together its fantastic for the media and the sport.

Whether the media is completely responsible for the demise of a team... we could debate that until the cows come home.. they play a role no doubt, but there are many more factors and good drivers dont neccessarily make good team owners...

Nicola Larini was the last Italian to drive for Ferrari (but dont let little snippets of facts ruin your argument)

There is no doubt that his 2nd place at the San Marino GP would have been superb hype for the Italian media had it not been overshadowed by a few other incidents that weekend...

However we can agree on one thing - the Ferrari back then was indeed a dog...
16th August 2008, 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravefish

Nicola Larini was the last Italian to drive for Ferrari (but dont let little snippets of facts ruin your argument)

There is no doubt that his 2nd place at the San Marino GP would have been superb hype for the Italian media had it not been overshadowed by a few other incidents that weekend...

However we can agree on one thing - the Ferrari back then was indeed a dog...

Larini did not have a full-time race contract, though, did he? Read my post.

He was subbing for the injured Alesi.

But don't let failure to read a post or actual facts ruin your argument.
16th August 2008, 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravefish

You cant beat patriotic pride and any time a driver of the same nationality as the team gets together its fantastic for the media and the sport.

Only when the results are good.

When they are bad to below-average, and Renault's post-2006 results have been (with 2 lucky exceptions) just that, it's a fecking nightmare.

Had, for example, Renault replaced the then Mclaren-bound Alonso with Bourdais, there would have been an initial buzz in the French media which would have then turned to lambasting either Renault or Bourdais for failure.

One good headline doesn't do any good if the other 20+ are full of vilification.
17th August 2008, 00:22
Mad_Hatter

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCWS77

What if the Porshe driver wants to take out wing and the team says no we cant this car wasnt made to run like that just learn to drive it as it is? By all accounts including Vettel's that is what they told bourdais. The idea a driver has to just learn to live with that is crazy. If you take that postion then the traditional idea of a driver even learning how to setup a car is a meaningless waste of time since it will be given to them. There is a theoretical best setup according to the laws of physics which probably could be figured out by computer and lab testing with no driver input. Just use that then and the driver just has to becomes a robot that can drive anything. Fun?

From what I've read it's not as simple a common adjustment. It's an issue with how the chassis is designed. Again, STR doesn't "design" their car. They are more or less supplied them by Red Bull Racing. I doubt they are truly at will to make far-reaching changes for one driver. Also, I have a hard time believing that his engineering team would willingly forgo his feedback now considering how respectably he was doing with the STR2 or whatever car they started the season with.

The idea that he should adapt to the car is not "crazy". What would you suggest for endurance racing teams and their setups?
17th August 2008, 11:07
bravefish

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

Larini did not have a full-time race contract, though, did he? Read my post.

He was subbing for the injured Alesi.

But don't let failure to read a post or actual facts ruin your argument.

Excellent stuff - cheers for the laugh - I could have written your post for you.
18th August 2008, 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravefish

Excellent stuff - cheers for the laugh - I could have written your post for you.

Your welcome, but I don't think I'm quite ready to take your comedy Post mantle just yet.

But, just for the fun of it, please explain why, if Bourdais at Renault would be such a hot media ticket, did Renault not offer him the world to get him into the car back when he was in F3000?

After all, if it was such media dynamite, it is very unlikely the Renault boardroom would have let Flavio Briatore offer him what was, to Bourdais, a poor contract. They'd surely have been offering all sorts for that kind of media gold.

If your theory holds water....what made them let him go?
19th August 2008, 11:12
ZzZzZz

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

Your welcome, but I don't think I'm quite ready to take your comedy Post mantle just yet.

But, just for the fun of it, please explain why, if Bourdais at Renault would be such a hot media ticket, did Renault not offer him the world to get him into the car back when he was in F3000?

After all, if it was such media dynamite, it is very unlikely the Renault boardroom would have let Flavio Briatore offer him what was, to Bourdais, a poor contract. They'd surely have been offering all sorts for that kind of media gold.

If your theory holds water....what made them let him go?

Because like you, they are under Flavio's spell?

If he was so worthless, why was Flavio so insistent on signing him for a career-long management contract? Pulling a bait-and-switch when he showed up for the test, not allowing him in the car unless he signed? Why pull such a stunt on a mediocre driver with no promise?

Clearly, his F3000 performance merited an invitation to test from Renault. Someone was interested in him. Then, when he refused to sign, Flavio slandered him (along with *all* French drivers, including Montagny by inference). Why would he do *that*? What suddenly changed other than refusing to give Flavio a huge cut of his career earnings? Nothing. The slander was to take the eyes off himself for his corrupt conflicted interest in running the team. That simple.

(As a side note, Montagny is now an AGR driver in ALMS and may soon have an Indy Car test.)
19th August 2008, 13:20
BobGarage

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzZzZz

(As a side note, Montagny is now an AGR driver in ALMS and may soon have an Indy Car test.)

he's already had an IndyCar test, at the start of the month at Kentucky ;)
19th August 2008, 15:48
garyshell

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzZzZz

Because like you, they are under Flavio's spell?

If he was so worthless, why was Flavio so insistent on signing him for a career-long management contract? Pulling a bait-and-switch when he showed up for the test, not allowing him in the car unless he signed? Why pull such a stunt on a mediocre driver with no promise?

Why, because Flavio takes care of Flavio first. Always has, always will. This says nothing about Sebastian's skill, positive or negative. It was a case of Flavio covering his own interests FIRST, in case the kid DID look good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzZzZz

Clearly, his F3000 performance merited an invitation to test from Renault. Someone was interested in him. Then, when he refused to sign, Flavio slandered him (along with *all* French drivers, including Montagny by inference). Why would he do *that*? What suddenly changed other than refusing to give Flavio a huge cut of his career earnings? Nothing. The slander was to take the eyes off himself for his corrupt conflicted interest in running the team. That simple.

(As a side note, Montagny is now an AGR driver in ALMS and may soon have an Indy Car test.)

The rest I agree with 100%.

Gary
19th August 2008, 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzZzZz

Because like you, they are under Flavio's spell?

The slander was to take the eyes off himself for his corrupt conflicted interest in running the team. That simple.

Yes, right, of course.

Renault would obviously be delighted to let a corrupt conflicted-interest individual dictate to them and let 'le enfant d'or' walk away and couldn't possibly have anything to do with the driver not being a mega talent.

How silly of me to think that a multi-national corporation and major car manufacturer wouldn't be hoodwinked like that.

Except, of course, that Renault did test Bourdais. They saw first-hand what he'd got.

If he'd have been mega, if he'd been the golden ticket to media glory, then the contract offer wouldn't have been such a poor one.

Now that is simple.
20th August 2008, 21:40
pits4me

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

If he'd have been mega, if he'd been the golden ticket to media glory, then the contract offer wouldn't have been such a poor one.

Now that is simple.

Unless he was railroaded to a poor showing for obvious reasons.
21st August 2008, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by pits4me

Unless he was railroaded to a poor showing for obvious reasons.

If that really were the case, then he was never going to be good enough.

If he couldn't handle that kind of pressure, then he would have stood no chance at the top-end of F1.

If what you claim was the truth, then the Renault management made an excellent decision to drop Bourdais off their radar and never pay any attention to him again.
21st August 2008, 15:05
garyshell

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

If that really were the case, then he was never going to be good enough.

If he couldn't handle that kind of pressure, then he would have stood no chance at the top-end of F1.

If what you claim was the truth, then the Renault management made an excellent decision to drop Bourdais off their radar and never pay any attention to him again.

I don't think pits was suggesting pressure so much as sabotage. Railroading can be done in many ways, not just mental games.

Gary
21st August 2008, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by garyshell

I don't think pits was suggesting pressure so much as sabotage. Railroading can be done in many ways, not just mental games.

Gary

I'm sorry Gary, but even if he was claiming 'sabotage' all it shows is that he's read too many conspiracy theories.

The idea that Bourdais had his Renault test 'knobbled' (if that's not an American phrase, I apologise...it means sabotaged) is far fetched in the extreme.

The simpler answer is often the real answer.

He wasn't good enough.
21st August 2008, 15:33
garyshell

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

I'm sorry Gary, but even if he was claiming 'sabotage' all it shows is that he's read too many conspiracy theories.

The idea that Bourdais had his Renault test 'knobbled' (if that's not an American phrase, I apologise...it means sabotaged) is far fetched in the extreme.

The simpler answer is often the real answer.

He wasn't good enough.

But didn't he refuse to sign the Flavio extortion contract prior to the test? If so, I would not be at all surprised that the car was not up to snuff. I put NOTHING past Flavio.

Gary
21st August 2008, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by garyshell

But didn't he refuse to sign the Flavio extortion contract prior to the test? If so, I would not be at all surprised that the car was not up to snuff. I put NOTHING past Flavio.

Gary

Even if the car wasn't Alonso-spec, had Bourdais done anything stella in it, the engineers would have been very keen to get his services.

Whilst Flavio is sly, he isn't a fool, and had Pat Symonds said that the boy Bourdais was special, Flavio would have listened.
22nd August 2008, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

My understanding is that Seb never got in the car, he was required to sign that contract as a condition of the test at the last moment. So how would anyone know if he was "special", just ordinary or out to lunch? Far worse drivers than him have had test laps.

He did test.

http://www.formula1.com/gallery/other/2007/176.html

He crashed into the gravel, as the FIA official Formula One website illustrates.
22nd August 2008, 15:26
indycool

FWIW......

http://www.flagworld.com/news/?p=3719
23rd August 2008, 21:37
gloomyDAY

Bourdais got into Q3 today.

The car has a great setup and Le Seb delivered.
24th August 2008, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Bourdais got into Q3 today.

The car has a great setup and Le Seb delivered.

Delivered?

4 places behind his "wunderkind" team-mate, same in the race.

That is not delivering. It's an improvement however, which is what Berger has demanded.
24th August 2008, 15:37
MDS

Starting 10th and finishing 10th isn't bad.

Shouldn't this be in the F-1 forum is this another shot in the "Can't tell the split is over" battle?

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