McLaren are doing everything in "padding" Lewis' run! I can't see the difference you see, maybe I should borrow some silver tinted glasses?!Quote:
Originally Posted by pits4me
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McLaren are doing everything in "padding" Lewis' run! I can't see the difference you see, maybe I should borrow some silver tinted glasses?!Quote:
Originally Posted by pits4me
That's bizarre! I thought that if the guy behind you get's in front of you it means that you lost a position! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
But the rule says team orders are prohibited if they interfere with a race result. If Hamilton couldn't manage to pass Heiki on a "fair" basis i.e. Lewis was slower than Heikki, then a team order instructing Heikki to slow and let Lewis through would be something like we saw in Austria 2002, and therefore illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Patently this was not the case in Germany 2008. For one thing the assumption is being made that a team order was issued by McLaren. Given that the FIA have access to team race communications it is safe to assume that that assumption is not a fact. Also, it is obvious to anyone that Lewis was the quicker driver and had the speed and opportunity to improve the teams' result from the 4th & 5th positions they held at the time.
Team orders or not, noone was going to stop Hamilton passing Kovalainen. It was just a matter of when.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Here:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
I guess, you lot only read the parts that suit your POV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
Cheers!
Yes. Kova would have been passed. The only thing he would have achieved is stopping Hamilton from passing Massa or Jr. Which would have gone down real well with the team!Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Is there a link for this "something like" comment or was it made in a tv interview?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
Here'swhat the team said:If seeing the pressing of a button on tv = illegal team orders then the FIA should have been, and will be, kept very busy :DQuote:
"Heikki was troubled by oversteer in his first stint, which we attempted to correct at his first pit stop, but he still struggled a little in his next stint. That being the case, he wasn't able to match Lewis's pace today. But it's the mark of both his professionalism and his sportsmanship that, aware of his situation relative to Lewis's, he made it relatively straightforward for Lewis to pass him."
The thing that is clouded for me, is that F1 is a team sport, I didn't agree with DC letting Mika past in Australia or the season ending race the year before. Blatantly staged. At least Lewis was clearly faster than Heiki and without doubt would have passed.
Any team mate who makes his team fight for any possition to hard is not a team player and will get dropped. 1st lap fair enough, mid to end of race, tough luck, you gotta drive faster.
It's not like Ferrari wouldn't have done it the same, and I wouldn't have had a problem with it. The big difference if they did is the two drivers are equal.
Ioan :
I don't read your posts, so I can't comment on others reading what they like from yours.............
Damn it, that means I read one of your posts.............lol
Agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Oh, team "integrity" and their chronic liar team boss. I'll sure take everything they say with at least a ton of salt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Don't worry, it's all right for me both ways, read them or not! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX_THRUST
I think your remark is hypocritical. Another excuse to attack McLaren/Ron 'integrity' Dennis.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
If forum members agree with Ron/McLaren actions then some people accuse them of being McLaren fanboys/British patriotism. This is becoming rather tiresome on this forum over the past month or so
And yet you're quite happy to take an as yet unsubstantiated "something like" comment as gospel.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Pot. Kettle. Black
:s mokin:
So if another member posted what Heiki commented on TV it isn't valuable?!
Given Ron's history of lies, I'm completely entitled to have reservations in believing him. Unless you believe he changed overnight.
It would be more valuable if it was a direct linked quote, as opposed to "something like", so I'll reserve judgement on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I'd expect nothing less :) But if you discount what Ron has said are you also ignoring the facts that 1) there has been no protest and 2) the FIA (who have access to all team communications) have taken no action over such a 'flagrant rule break'?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Heikki said that to MTV3, finnish TV, after the race. Then later when he came out from McLaren motorhome, he was much more reserved with his words...No doubt RD had done his "magic" again...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Here's a stupid rule .
This was a team order .
Ron might have said it in a less blatant way , but it was most definitely a team order .
He even praised his driver afterwards for getting the message .
Though what had happened was very clear , the way Ron worded that message made it so he had completely complied with the rules regarding team orders .
Did I mention that this rule is stupid ?
Team orders are essential , and used regularly at every team , but are expressly forbidden , unless worded in the correct manner , so as not to seem blatant , even though they might look obvious enough to cause heated debate even when worded properly .
If you word it right , you can even thank your man for pulling over .
I wonder what the punishment would have been , had Ron just said he wanted Heikki to let Lewis by .
That would have been horribly illegal .
Just so nobody gets the wrong impression , I want to state that this rule is stupid , in my opinion .
I said ultimately ioan. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Lewis went on to pass both Junior and Massa, while Kovi never looked like closing the gap to them.
The way I saw it, Kovi may have been able to hold Lewis up for, at the most, a couple of laps but Lewis would have passed him with no more difficulty than the way he passed Junior and Massa.
Of course you might have seen things differently.
Give it a break, ioan. I can't say more or I'll get banned. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Heikki has every right to be unhappy because team orders benefit one driver, just as Lewis was unhappy in Monaco last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalafi
But really Heikki should really be angry with himself because Lewis is digging deep to make things happen and Heikki is struggling at times.
Don't like it? Don't read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
There is another angle Valve. Yes LH went on to pass two other cars and ultimately win the race (and I think LH is a brilliant driver, he amazes me at times the way a young Schumi did), but if LH had been rightly forced to have raced his teammate for the position, there may have been a collision which put LH out of the race. Its called a racing incident. The result would have been very different then. HK's actions negated that possibility and prevented the viewers the chance of possibly seeing a first time winner in a Renault. That is the reason the team order rule was introduced. As it is we dont have enough overtaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
It is a long shot that LH and HK would have had an incident or that one of them may have gone off the track during a genuine overtaking attempt, but the remote possibility was removed by a blatant team move which contravenes the team order rule.
I hear X-Files will be shown in the Cinema soon.
:laugh: Not interested. I only watch XXX-Files :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
What if HK kept Hmilton behind himself long enough to deny him the chance to catch Piquet?!
There are plenty of questions to be answered, and plenty of scenarios to come up with.
In the end, I'm all for team orders.
However I'm against hypocrisy!
:up: My feelings exactly. Apparently our feelings are wrong no matter what and other hard arsed ones round here are always right :( There is a definite pecking order when it comes to being "right" round here :down:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Whatch that chip doesn't fall off your shoulder and crush a toe ;)
That was a brilliant drive by LH. If this is the best detraction that his detractors can come up with,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
it is pretty clear that he deserves congratulations, not reservations, and qualifications!
Not a good situation to invoke this rule!
The opposite is also true. Do you have any proof they did not do it? Because it sure looks like they did. Anyway just remeber to stick to you story when the opposite will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
You know what? Juist remeber that these things go both ways. And since what goes around comes around I can't wait to see what you are going to say when Ferrari is going to do the same. I already know that you are going to flip flop and start ranting how Ferrari is unfair, and all that trash. Just be man enough to remember what you say and stick to your story. That' all I have to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
It appears you are already wearing rose colored glasses. Lewis was much faster than his team mate last weekend. Rubens was clearly the better driver when Ferrari "suggested" he let Michael by.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
The difference here boils down to which driver or team you support. McLaren naysayers are like vultures looking for the first sign of road kill (even if the varmit still has life in it). Now the FIA has impounded LH's engine, just when I thought the "F" didn't mean Ferrari. You'd think this witch hunt would be history by now.
So you know exactly was said on the radio do you?
Threads like this are the main reason I dont post much on F1 forums as theres too many people out there that think they know, nut actually just believe what they want to make up.
If you had a driver that was over half a second faster than his team mate and fighting for the championship youd expect them to swap places.
And I won't deny it, unlike you and some other wearing the silver tainted glasses! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pits4me
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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Now that is rich.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Time and time again you've been asked to substantiate your claims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
For the record, I have no problem with Hamilton passing Kovalienen, team-orders or not.
i'll try to keep it short, it seems the problem is not that order, but the fact that "McLaren fans" have defended the move(apparently thats what everyone who disagrees with "Ferrari fans" must be, i'll also take "Hypocrites" instead of Mac fans ;) )
the way i see it, there is a rule against team orders, and that came around as a direct response to Austria 2002 where the result was switched to no net benefit of the team. The rule may be worded poorly, but the intention IMO is to prevent teams from switching their drivers as they see fit to gain a couple of points for one driver to the detriment of the other, especially at the point in a year when the points made little difference.
it appears there was certainly at least a request for Heikki to let a faster Lewis past, however it was clear that Lewis should not have been behind Heikki, that he was clearly the faster driver on the day. had they not made that request Lewis may not have got past, or not in time to catch and pass the other 2. If Heikki had been on a pace to catch and pass the leaders then this is a different story, but releasing the faster of the 2 cars happens somewhere in the field in most races, especially when they are on different strategies, or when the net result is a gain for the team - i don't see threads all over the place calling rule breakages for those - a little Hypocritical no?
it seems pretty reasonable to suggest that if Heikki had not moved over (ordered or not) then McLaren would have had a worse result than they finally acheived. this is clearly not in contravention to the spirit of the team order rules, presumabley the other teams (Ferrari and Renault who were directly affected) think the same as they are not protesting, the FIA have not seen fit to investigate. i would also expect any other team to do pretty much the same, and also for no-one to bat an eyelid.
if we are going to get excited about this now, start bandying around "hypocrites" and double standards, then perhaps we should start with Brazil last year, where a faster Massa moved over to let Kimi past - not net gain in the result for the team, but a gain for the driver? however there is no reason to, it was a perfectly reasonable call given the circumstances. if we are going to examine every decision to the veryt leter of the regulations then there is no point in watching, every situation has its own unique set of motives, circumstances and outcomes - F1 is never going to be black and white, particularly when looking at sporting regs rather than technical ones.
if there was a clear rule breach there would be something being done, all there actually is are a few people who like an opportunity to play the downtrodden and imagine what the outcome may have been if the situation were reversed, based on an assumpition of peoples motives in a quite different set of circumstances several years ago, yet it is the "McLaren fans" who are apparently losing credibility. isn't it time for common sense to prevail?
if you disagree with the move then fine, and i'd hope you'd do the same regardless of the teams involved. if you think this is a situation that would be perfectly reaosnable and to be expected regardless of the team then fine.
Im new here, so go easy...
Arent team radios monitored? If so then obviously if RD had told HK to let LH pass then they would have been punished. Telling him his teammates pace is not against the rules, leave it up to HK to make the decision. Its a team sport first and formost, personal glory second.
Anyway, HK seems like level headed guy, why would he race his teammate hard and possibly take them both out? Thats the worst thing you can do. I dont think he would. His pace was nowhere near LH's, no ones was in that race.
Comparing this to Austria 02/brazil 07 is like comparing a Cessna to a 747...
Hi there Rosco1. Welcome to the forums! And a nice sensible first post ;)
I don't see why people need to be branded as "McLaren Fanboys" if they don't dispute the team orders. It doesn't matter which team had swapped their drivers in that situation, it was the sensible thing to do. You would insist your team do the same as a team boss in any form of motor racing. And that doesn't make them McLaren Fanboys for supporting their team, does it?
Another point that hasn't been mentioned here (that I've seen);
If LH was brought into the pits, they'd have had to queue HK up behind him. McLaren chose to try get their best overall result by keeping LH out for longer. They sort of dropped their lead driver for the benefit of the 2nd driver who did not have to wait in queues. HK returned the favour later on in the race in helping LH get back into his position. Was it forced by the team? I'd like to think that HK is smart enough not to need team orders to tell him what to do in that situation.
You need help :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Why? I want Kimi to win. :rolleyes: and If Msasa wins, great!! So what's your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by mstillhere