Indy Cup Race Thread

What a crappy race. As a fan of all motorsports, Goodyear continues to tarnish their image as a tire supplier for any series. Like Smoke said earlier this year, Goodyear was run out of F1, CART, IRL, etc because they could not compete with Bridgestone/Firestone.

I really hope NASCAR will consider other tire suppliers when their contract with Goodyear expires.

At least Firestone is well known for their Quality control issues across all forms of motorsport. Their R&D and reliability is unsurpassed as compared to Goodyear.

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Originally Posted by DavePI2

as one who is not a fan of nascar I will defend nascar here. As was mentioned above this is not the first time this has happened at indy. At least nascar is running a race. It certainly isn't the best but at least there is a race. That can not be said of f1 who refused to make any changes and had the worst debacle in motor sports history.

david

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The F1 debacle was a different set of circumstances due to tire war between Bridgestone & Michelin. In the end, Michelin's tire choice for the F1 race was claimed to be a so-called (cough) hazard :rolleyes: . However, another big factor for most of the teams refusing to race was the political ramifications behind the scenes (the possible breakaway series due to the Concorde agreement and, of course, money paid out to the teams).

We all know that Nascar has a single tire supplier. Like every other year, Goodyear has failed to deliver a consistent tire on a race to race basis. A pathetic excuse when you consider they have no competition.

I don't blame Goodyear alone. They could have done better, but I put more fault on the track. In 2005 the track was repaved to remove weepers. Then it was levigated because the new pavement was too bumpy for IndyCars.

The new pavement has been bad for the Indy 500 because too many marbles accumulate outside the racing line that slow cars can't yield. Formula 1 had the 2005 debacle. NASCAR has been walking on egg shells this whole time. Indy's new surface makes Rockingham look like a skating rink.

I vote that Indy moves to ORP, put 100,000 seats around the track and that will be much more successful than another Indy debacle

Hey I was just throwing it out as a possibility not an excuse. I don't watch nascar enough. Just asking a question as a occasional observer. I am glad for the imformation from everyone in this forum on the state of goodyear and nascar as in dealing with this issue becuause I don't watch it enough.


david

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Originally Posted by oldhippie

you cant blame nascar for this mess
goodyear dropped the ball again
disgusting!

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They shoulder the blame. Most sactioning bodies work with their partners to ensure safety, and reduce issues. NASCAR should keep track of their technical partner, becuase this is not the first time they have dropped the ball.

as for realiability when i bought my truck brand new it was a performance truck and the goodyear eagle gt i had on it were shot by 12,000 miles is this the r&d that goodyear does? this today everyone that was involved was at fault indy for the track surface goodyear for bringing something that was junk and nascar not testing before and allowing this circus act to go on today. bring in tire competition

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Originally Posted by dont_be_jack

I'll agree with you on that one. NASCAR flew in the Pocono tires in case they needed them as teams ran out of the Indy tires and are doing what they can to keep people safe.

There are very obvious issues with Indy and everyone but the IRL. The speeds that the teams race at, the lack of banking, and the levigating of the track a few years ago have ruined whatever racing there once was.

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I'll add one more: Talladega 1969.

Drivers went on strike at that race, and NASCAR ran it with half of the field and replacement drivers. They put competition cautions every 25 laps and had no crashes. Lessons learned from that first race at 'Dega were used today.

No drivers in the hospital tonight (or worse), 41 of the 43 cars were running, and much to Allstate's business, they applauded the moves.

"With Allstate's more than 75 years of history as a leader of safety and protection, we support the safety precautions taken by IMS and NASCAR today because the safety and protection of the drivers is what matters most."

Sounds like the race was in good hands with all that happened. It turned into your neighbourhood short-track race, and even into early IMS races that were sprints. In that light, maybe it was good to be a short-track fan since they were treated to old-school short track racing they see on Saturday nights -- 8-10 lap heat races with a pit stop contest every round. Those pit stops turned into endurance matches as the race turned into heat races mixed with an athletic contest between heats by the pit crews.

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Originally Posted by call_me_andrew

I don't blame Goodyear alone. They could have done better, but I put more fault on the track. In 2005 the track was repaved to remove weepers. Then it was levigated because the new pavement was too bumpy for IndyCars.

The new pavement has been bad for the Indy 500 because too many marbles accumulate outside the racing line that slow cars can't yield. Formula 1 had the 2005 debacle. NASCAR has been walking on egg shells this whole time. Indy's new surface makes Rockingham look like a skating rink.

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That's a bunch of crap!! The previous Indy overlay was placed in 1996 and diamond ground in 2002. The current overlay was placed in fall of 2004 and ground in spring 2005. That means that NASCAR has been running on Indy's diamond ground pavement since 2002 - 6 races before today. Goodyear has a responsibility to understand what the track is like and provide a tire that will withstand the forces of the track. If you are trying to tell me that Goodyear doesn't have enough data from the last 6 years, you're completely clueless. Firestone doesn't have a problem building a tire to last for 100 miles and I guarantee you the forces on an IndyCar tire going through the turns at 225 are significantly greater than a Cup tire going through the corners at 145 mph, even if the Cup car does weigh twice as much.

Your claim about the new pavement being bad for IndyCar is completely baseless. The 2005 and 2006 500's were two of the greatest races in the history of the race, the 2007 one was on it's way to being that way, and the 2008 was very good for 2-33.

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Originally Posted by pdalbey

That's a bunch of crap!! The previous Indy overlay was placed in 1996 and diamond ground in 2002. The current overlay was placed in fall of 2004 and ground in spring 2005. That means that NASCAR has been running on Indy's diamond ground pavement since 2002 - 6 races before today. Goodyear has a responsibility to understand what the track is like and provide a tire that will withstand the forces of the track. If you are trying to tell me that Goodyear doesn't have enough data from the last 6 years, you're completely clueless. Firestone doesn't have a problem building a tire to last for 100 miles and I guarantee you the forces on an IndyCar tire going through the turns at 225 are significantly greater than a Cup tire going through the corners at 145 mph, even if the Cup car does weigh twice as much.

Your claim about the new pavement being bad for IndyCar is completely baseless. The 2005 and 2006 500's were two of the greatest races in the history of the race, the 2007 one was on it's way to being that way, and the 2008 was very good for 2-33.

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What are you smoking?

If the current overlay was placed in 2004, then what does data from 2002 matter? I recall the diamond grinding in 2002, but that doesn't really matter if the whole thing is repaved in 2004 now does it?

Firestone's tires don't last 100 miles. IndyCars go about 75 miles between pit stops. Plus the IndyCar tires are in open air so they run about 40 degrees cooler than Cup Car tires.

The Indy 500 has been a good race for the last few years, but the passes have all been outbreaking or slingshot manuvers. Nothing along the lines of running side-by-side for a few laps.

Here's footage from the 2005 I500. The lack of a Formula 1 starting grid confirms this is the first race with the current pavement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtPnP...eature=related

Here's footage from the 2007 I 500. In this clip John Andretti moves out of the line to yield to a faster car, and the marbles created by diamond grinding cause him to crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67g8Vb_WYdU

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Originally Posted by tstran17_88

Is Charter Comm your cable provider? I just want to make sure I'm crucifying the correct culprit! :D

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No it's Time-Warner.

Goodyear have dropped the ball twice this year (atlanta). they must have known for awhile that this was gonna happen. Goodyear should be ashamed of themselves and NASCAR should be ashamed of themselves for letting it happen.

Like any disaster, there's not one single event that leads to the problem, but a series of events:

First is the IMS and diamond grinding, one can debate its merits or lack thereof, but it does it does have an effect on what happens at the track, and it is abrasive. However, it was done in 2005, so it was a known factor and 3 Brickyards, 3 Indys, and 2 F1's have been run in this configuration so while a factor, it didn't catch anybody by surprise.

Nascar then mandates the COT, which raises the center-of-gravity and completely changes the handling characteristics. Nascar did have Goodyear test, but in hindsight, it should have been more thorough, because the COT combined with a diamond ground track has led to other near disasters this year (Atlanta). I don't think Charlotte last year was a COT race, but the desire for a smooth track has led to some problems for Goodyear elsewhere also.

That leads to the drivers and teams themselves, although they are doing what just comes naturally, trying to go fast. Goodyear had a harder tire at the Indy test, but the drivers said they didn't like the way the car handled, so Goodyear said ok, we'll use the softer tire. They said, "It will probably rubber up with a full field of cars like last year, and it will be ok." That's probably the biggest mistake there, assuming the tire will perform the same as last year when the car had undergone massive changes to its handling characteristics. Hindsight is 20/20, but a full test with mandated full fuel runs should have perhaps been done to see if in fact the track would rubber up and things would be ok.

Back on the teams, they share some blame, but they are just trying to get an edge which is what they are supposed to do. They want the softer, grippier tire of course, and they also experiment with this new car trying to make it turn like the old car. The result has been the "crab" cars with the offset rear axles. It works great for turns, but can cause problems with tire wear on the straights, and Indy is all straights, so tires are not only wearing out in the turns, but also on the straights. Look at yesterday, the right rears bore the brunt of the abuse.

So there's lots of blame to go around, but blame is pretty much useless, folks just need to put their heads together and see where they go foward from here and how do they respond, although, if I was Nascar and Goodyear, I would be offering ticket holders another ticket to a future event, because it was a fiasco.

It's funny, I was really frustrated yesterday because my cable and internet had a 4 hour regional outage yesterday 40 laps into the race, my wife was out, and the two year old was napping, so I couldn't leave. (I briefly debated the merits of carrying a two and four year old to a sports bar, but didn't think it would be such a great idea :p : ) Reading the comments here, it was a blessing in disguise, not to have seen that race.

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Originally Posted by call_me_andrew

What are you smoking?

If the current overlay was placed in 2004, then what does data from 2002 matter? I recall the diamond grinding in 2002, but that doesn't really matter if the whole thing is repaved in 2004 now does it?

Firestone's tires don't last 100 miles. IndyCars go about 75 miles between pit stops. Plus the IndyCar tires are in open air so they run about 40 degrees cooler than Cup Car tires.

The Indy 500 has been a good race for the last few years, but the passes have all been outbreaking or slingshot manuvers. Nothing along the lines of running side-by-side for a few laps.

Here's footage from the 2005 I500. The lack of a Formula 1 starting grid confirms this is the first race with the current pavement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtPnP...eature=related

Here's footage from the 2007 I 500. In this clip John Andretti moves out of the line to yield to a faster car, and the marbles created by diamond grinding cause him to crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67g8Vb_WYdU

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It matters because the diamond grinding is the issue, not the actual asphalt itself. It is the ridges that result from the diamond grinding process that make the track abrasive and those have been there continuously since the 2002 race. Goodyear should have been in no way surprised by this issue.

Yes, the IndyCars go about 30-35 laps, in the 75 mile ball park, but those stops are necessitated by fuel load, not tires. It is not uncommon at all to see drivers run two stints on a set of tires to gain track position. I'm not denying that the IndyCars have an issue with marbles but that tends to happen at most tracks they run on. It is certainly not specific to Indy. The problem this year was more of the inexperienced guys thinking they could run up there and finding out too late that they couldn't.

I was not aware that there was a major construction difference btween the IndyCar and Cup tires although I guess I do recall that the Cup tires use an inner liner. With that, I'm really suprised by the explosive blow-out that Montoya and Kennseth had yesterday. Isn't the inner tire supposed to avoid issues like that?

Some of you are missing the real issue, the TRACK abrasive surface is the problem !!!
The track surface caused the tire issues that were so prevelent yesterday.
The Goodyear tires raced yesterday were NOT the problem !!!

I think it is time for Tony George to dig into his piggybank & resurface the track !
Yesterday's race with all of the tire issues were a major fiasco. :s
No doubt more "bad" races will likely follow @ the Brickyard if something isn't done to the track surface.

It is time to GRIND-UP the existing pavement & REPAVE the Brickyard again !!! http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...ongue-anim.gif

NASCAR should demand the Brickyard's surface be corrected or else NASCAR will pull it's race !

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Originally Posted by RaceFanStan

NASCAR should demand the Brickyard's surface be corrected or else NASCAR will pull it's race !

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WORD!!!!!!!!

I agree wholeheartedly.

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Originally Posted by RaceFanStan

Some of you are missing the real issue, the TRACK abrasive surface is the problem !!!

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Then why didn't the tires in the Indy 500 experience this problem?

During the broadcast it sounded very much like they were saying it was a NASCAR mandated set-up, that does not allow the teams to properly adjust the car for these conditions.

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Originally Posted by RaceFanStan

NASCAR should demand the Brickyard's surface be corrected or else NASCAR will pull it's race !

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And TG should tell them to go back to Daytona and learn how to set-up a car.

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Originally Posted by pdalbey

It matters because the diamond grinding is the issue, not the actual asphalt itself. It is the ridges that result from the diamond grinding process that make the track abrasive and those have been there continuously since the 2002 race. Goodyear should have been in no way surprised by this issue.

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So NASCAR runs at Indy under the same conditions for 6 years with no tire issues. In 2008 there is a new car with new rules and now all of a sudden they have tire issues.

Whats the thing that changed? The track conditions? The tires? No. The car and the rules.

NASCAR created this issue, NASCAR should fix it.

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

Then why didn't the tires in the Indy 500 experience this problem?

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Bridgestone/Firestone was the tire supplier, enough said :s mokin: they know how to actually produce a fully functional race tire.

but the problem was part of the CoT, NASCAR forces the teams to follow the books and since they took the left side weight out of the car, the tires are just shot.

bring back the old car Nascar, it was still just as safe as this piece of garbage and still is a better racecar overall. this was not a race, it was a travesty, the fans should've stormed out of the track (well alot did as at the end of the race, there were alot of empty seats). This just doesn't happen in professional racing, to throw a comp caution every 12 laps and closing the pits for 2 laps while under green so teams can't short pit to get the lead. what a load of BS is that, its a race. There is only one race I know that teams pit every 12 laps and thats Le Mans, but its also a 7 mile road course, and the teams were double-triple stinting there Michelin Tires, so you can do the math on the miles on one set of tires.

Brian France, step down, Mike Helton, get the **** out, its time for some new people in charge. Goodyear, how are you still around

I wonder if the Motorcycle folks are having second thoughts about racing at IMS?

I will admit the COT has more grip & could require a better pavement surface ...
That being stated, the COT is here to stay & the tracks will have to adjust to the COT ...
if an existing track surface creates a safety issue it needs to be changed or dropped ...
there are several tracks pleading for a Cup race date & others are pleading for a 2nd Cup race date ...
NASCAR is in control of the Cup race dates & will determine who gets races ...
no-one wants to see the Brickyard dropped but something has to be done to ensure the driver's safety ...
10 to 12 lap heat races are NOT an acceptable option !!! http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...ongue-anim.gif

Perhaps they should fix the tire. Or perhaps they should allow the teams to set up cars in a better manner so that the forces are more in line with the crappy tires can handle.

move IMS date to ORP, still in Indy, but a much better track IMO, one of few oval tracks that are great

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Originally Posted by pdalbey

Or perhaps they should allow the teams to set up cars in a better manner so that the forces are more in line with the crappy tires can handle.

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Adjust the car to the track and not the track to the car? Could it really be so easy?

Or, find another track. There are lots of tracks that would like a Cup race, or a second Cup race.

After that poor excuse for a "race" NASCAR should be ashamed of themselves. The Daytona belevolent dictatorship has jumped the shark.

Nascar is going to continue to deny they have problems until the day comes when those stands are more than half empty. I'm sick of their PC attitude and the way they intimidate drivers and team members from making any negative comments about how they are screwing with this sport so much they are ruining it. This race (which it wasn't one) is the biggest example of the mess they are making of this sport. Their stupid COT is backfiring on them.

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Originally Posted by ms0362

Nascar is going to continue to deny they have problems until the day comes when those stands are more than half empty. I'm sick of their PC attitude and the way they intimidate drivers and team members from making any negative comments about how they are screwing with this sport so much they are ruining it. This race (which it wasn't one) is the biggest example of the mess they are making of this sport. Their stupid COT is backfiring on them.

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I would argue the stands weren't significantly more than half full yesterday - at least not by NASCAR standards. Many reports indicate that stands at the north end of the track (northwest vista and north vista) were 1/3 to 1/2 full. Like wise on the south end of the track (southwest vista, south vista, and G-stand). Most of the Tower Terrace below the Terrace Suites was a ghost town and much of the outside front straight stands were empty in the areas not covered by the upper deck (those are stands A, B, C, and paddock). Granted, I could not see what the attendance was under the upper deck. I'm sure the upper deck was packed and from what I could see, so was the northwest vista, J stand, H stand, E-stand, and most of the SE vista. I've been to IMS many, many times and based on what I saw there, I would say a fair estimate was 180-190k, given Curt Cavin's report of the total permanent capacity being 257,xxx seats. It certainly wasn't anywhere close tot he 200k, 250k, and "sold-out capacity" numbers that I heard almost every commentator proclaim yesterday. 190k people is still a hell of an attendance but I'm sure it's not what NASCAR wants to see and more importantly, not what NASCAR wants the viewing public to see.

Above all series, I am a fan of IMS and while the 500 is my first love, I still want to see any event at the Speedway be successful. I fear that after this showing, the downward trend of attendance will not be reversed next year. :(

ETA: I should say that my views of the stand did not come at the beginning of the race as ESPN was very reluctant to show much of the grandstands on the north end. The only over head shot I saw came at about lap 75 and I concede that many fans that were there at the beginning of the race may have left by that point.

the only thing i would like to know is if this will happen at michigan? This years race is my last cup race if any of the bull that has gone on at the last two I've been too continues. If there is an issue like this at michigan I will never go back.

david

who is that ex-basketball player on espn? He is the only one who would tell the truth about the crowd. While everyone else was saying what a huge crowd their was tonight he said there was more like 150. He won't keep his job long with comments like that. Of course although I am sure it has been discussed at length before I still beg to ask, what in the world is a basketball player doing as one of the top analysts for nascar. Still all the hubbub about dropping attendance isn't really much of a subject. The people who get hurt worst in a depression are the blue collar workers. That is who still by and large support nascar. When the economy improves so will the attendance. That is probably one reason the tv ratings are up, people just can't afford to go like they used too.

david

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Originally Posted by Lee Roy

Or, find another track. There are lots of tracks that would like a Cup race, or a second Cup race.

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That's probably easier than setting the car up properly. And the fans would absolutley love it too.

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Originally Posted by DavePI2

who is that ex-basketball player on espn? He is the only one who would tell the truth about the crowd. While everyone else was saying what a huge crowd their was tonight he said there was more like 150. He won't keep his job long with comments like that. Of course although I am sure it has been discussed at length before I still beg to ask, what in the world is a basketball player doing as one of the top analysts for nascar. Still all the hubbub about dropping attendance isn't really much of a subject. The people who get hurt worst in a depression are the blue collar workers. That is who still by and large support nascar. When the economy improves so will the attendance. That is probably one reason the tv ratings are up, people just can't afford to go like they used too.

david

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Brad Daugherty owned a CT team in the late 90s and is currently part owner of JTG Racing. I like him because he doesn't try to sugarcoat things like all the other talking heads on race broadcasts.

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Originally Posted by Alexamateo

It's funny, I was really frustrated yesterday because my cable and internet had a 4 hour regional outage yesterday 40 laps into the race, my wife was out, and the two year old was napping, so I couldn't leave. (I briefly debated the merits of carrying a two and four year old to a sports bar, but didn't think it would be such a great idea :p : ) Reading the comments here, it was a blessing in disguise, not to have seen that race.

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Why not just listen to it on the radio?

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

Then why didn't the tires in the Indy 500 experience this problem?

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They had a similar problem. See my link to John Andretti's crash.

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Originally Posted by pdalbey

It matters because the diamond grinding is the issue, not the actual asphalt itself. It is the ridges that result from the diamond grinding process that make the track abrasive and those have been there continuously since the 2002 race. Goodyear should have been in no way surprised by this issue.

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Just because the track was ground in 2002 doesn't mean that data from that time is relevant.

Dimaond ground Pavement X=/=Diamond ground Pavement Y

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Originally Posted by Lee Roy

I wonder if the Motorcycle folks are having second thoughts about racing at IMS?

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They started having second thoughts before they agreed to the race. That's why the snakepit complex was built.

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Originally Posted by call_me_andrew

They had a similar problem. See my link to John Andretti's crash.

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The creation of marbles isn't at all similar to exploding tires.

And the Indy 500 wasn't yellow flagged every 10 laps for marbles, nor did the teams come in every 10 laps to change their tires!

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Originally Posted by Lee Roy

I wonder if the Motorcycle folks are having second thoughts about racing at IMS?

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Doubt it. The MotoGP course doesn't actually use any of the oval turns. It's like the F1 course, but with a chicane at the Snake Pit, and anticlockwise.

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Originally Posted by pdalbey

I would argue the stands weren't significantly more than half full yesterday - at least not by NASCAR standards.

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On the TV it certainly looked emptier than what it has appeared in previous years. I'm guessing people may have known about the tyre issue before the race and stayed away.

Anyway, when Goodyear is the sole tyre supplier for the entire series, why on earth did they stuff up so badly? Surely they should have brought a harder compound. Even when Michelin had the problems in F1 a few years ago, it wasn't a certainty that the tyre would fail after 10 laps (like the Nascar race where everyone was wearing the tyre down to the cords), it was just a possibility depending on the car set up. ie: Goodyear missed it by much more than Michelin.

The only reason Nascar sort of got out of it with the cautions is because everyone was on the same tyre. If they had done that with the F1 race, then it would be an unfair penatly to Bridgestone as they had brought a tyre suitable to the track.

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Originally Posted by DavePI2

The people who get hurt worst in a depression are the blue collar workers. That is who still by and large support nascar.

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Please leave your stereotyping of people and elitism over on the open-wheel forums where it is welcome.

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Originally Posted by call_me_andrew

Why not just listen to it on the radio?

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Oh I tried that too. :p : It is usually carried by 105.9 here in Memphis TN, and it was listed as being on in the Sunday Sports section, but for some reason, they weren't carrying the race, I searched around looking for another more distant station, but I guess atmospheric conditions weren't right.

NASCAR and Goodyear should not have been surprised by the problem that occurred. In the 2007 race at IMS, NASCAR scheduled and threw a "competition yellow" to check tires for wear at Lap 20 because they foresaw a potential problem. Only a couple were bad, and the race continued in "real time."

Now, we go to 2008 and we have the COT. Goodyear ran a three-car test in April in 55-60-degree weather. I have heard that the most laps turned during that test in a row was 12 by Earnhardt Jr. The COT has a higher center of gravity and puts more load on the right rear. I've had two friends who were sitting in the third-turn stands who said they were covered with black tire dust when the race was over.

IMO, the COT didn't fix what wasn't broken in the first place. And ever since Goodyear paid NASCAR for exclusivity as a tire, it's had problems.