A night race, added to the expense of a temporary course with the expense of lighting, is absolutely insane financially.
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A night race, added to the expense of a temporary course with the expense of lighting, is absolutely insane financially.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Monaco
Yeah, I know the line Very well. I live 12 miles south and 19 miles west of it and know the locations of about 6-8 markers and two of the larger stones That are still in place within about a half hour of my house.
The "War of Northern Agression" ain't soon forgot in these parts, even if this isn't 'zactly Dixie ;)
Lets not!Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
I will say it again.
I am talking Marketing and demographics.
That rumored schedule only has one race in what could be considered the Southern US.
Nascar's problem is that they are running 36 weekends of the year, plus one for the All-Star race, and another one for Daytona Speed Weeks. It's too much Nascar, and I don't want Indycar to turn into the same thing. I'm happy with AOWR running 18-22 races a year, maybe 25 tops. But whatever the schedule is, it needs to be spread out to gives teams and fans a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by champcar72
Road America and Cleveland need to be on the schedule. I'd rather see Cleveland on there then Mid-Ohio until they get multiple chassis and engines, otherwise there won't be any passing.
Actually the drivers remarked during testing that Daytona wasn't too bumpy. The bumps are only bad in the ovals turns but thats a moot point since the chicane keeps them from being up to speed in the turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo-engine
That's not a bad calender, but I wonder what happened to that oval race in Mexico we heard so briefly about.
Huh? Henderson Ky? That is much further south. You are thinking of Hebron, Ky, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
But you are spot on with the speech identification. Although over the past few years and the build up of Nothern KY area, the audible indications are lessened a lot. But once you get past the I-275 beltway it reappears quickly.
Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofastandwynn
Cleveland can be VERY VERY hot. With no trees comes no shade add in hot concrete runways and lakefront humidity and it can be pretty nasty. Hence the one year experiment with a night race. It helped a lot but was mucho expensive!
I have not been to RA in years but understand the amenities are substantially better than they used to be.
Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
And so was I. Again, I invite you to show me a marketing plan for the Kentucky Speedway that would not include two major metropolitan SOUTHERN cities that are both within 70 miles of the track.
So sayeth the marketing and demographics expert who doesn't consider Lexington and Louisville as Southern cities. (450,000 and 1,380,000 population respectively)Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Gary
And this talk about "Marketing and Demographics" is why you placed Ft. Worth in the midwest? Do you really think it's close demographically and geographically to these other mid-western races?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Honestly I don't see how this schedule is in any sense a good schedule even this is a transitional period. I mean, it's basically this year's schedule with one addition of Toronto and a little bit of change of race date. I mean, I just don't get why they would leave out Cleveland, Mexico City and a potentially NH. Circuits like Road America might be a long shot but I was expecting more than this, I do hope this isn't really a genuine "leaked" schedule.
Find Sparta on the Map.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Draw a Circle 100 Miles in all directions around Sparta.
Tell Me again how it is a Southern race.
Oops, Gary, I stand corrected....Henderson is across from Evansville....I was thinking of Covington....don't know why I did that (I've even flown out of Ludlam, is it, the private airport in Cincinnati?).
anthony, a 100-mile circle around Sparta would include northern cities and southern cities. You'd get pretty close to Knoxville. You'd get pretty close to Indianapolis. And you would definitely, as Gary says, get Louisville and Lexington.
Draw a 100 mile circle around Ft. Worth and tell me again how it's a mid-west race.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Lunken is the small airport in Cincinnati, public not private, actually owned by the city of Cincinnati. It is about a mile from my office.
Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
I did that already. And two of the three closest major metropolitan areas are as previously stated, Lexington and Lousiville. And in addition there is the State Capital Frankfort. I guess none of those are "southern" enough for a South Florida lad, huh? It may not be southern enough for you, but I'd be VERY careful if you propose such a preposterous statement to the residents of any of those three cities. Hell, even the folks in Cincinnati would consider it a southern race. It is in Kentucky afterall!
Gary
Gary,Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
You either don't get it or just want to argue.
MARKETING!!!!
I will give you an example.
I am in Miami. Miami is the Southernmost metropolitan City in the Continental US. Geographically it is about as Southern as you can get.
If you market a major Racing Event to a Souther Audience in Miami you might as well pack up your belongings and quit.
NASCAR has a hard time selling out a 65,000 seat Track here.
While Sparta is in the South Geographically a large portion of it's market for an Indycar race is decidely Mid-Western.
You may not like the idea. You may disagree. But it is a MARKETING FACT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Ok let's look at the original message that started this off. Now tell me are these marketers looking for a "southern race" or a race that they can market to people who live in the south???? I think we both know the answer is the latter. These potential marketers of an ICS event could not give a rats ass about a "southern race" versus a "midwestern race". They DO care about the number of people surrounding a particular venue that might be in their demographic. In the case of Sparta, they will see a significant number of folks who live in the south that might attend. Likewise with Ft. Worth. They won't see this as a "southern race" or a "midwestern race" they will see it as a race to attract folks who live in the south.
You are the one who wants to argue this ridiculous notion of marketing a "southern race". The marketing FACT is, no one marketing a ICS race will ever market something as a "southern race" or a "midwestern race".
They will all put push pins on a map and see how many folks fall within a certain radius of that pin and market to them BY CITY, not by geographic region.
Gary
If you take the time to look at my original response you would see that all I was stating was that the IRL's possible schedule was too Mid-West-centric. If you are a National brand and want a good ROI by sponsoring a national series wouldn't you want to be in one that was available throughout various markets in equal footing?Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
That potential Schedule is great if your brand wants to target the heartland but what about a brand that wants to target other larger and more cosmopolitan markets?
Don't worry its not a leaked schedule, just some guesswork and rumors.Quote:
Originally Posted by speeddurango
We should know what the real one looks like in about a week's time
anthony, the NFL doesn't have a team in LA, so is that a disaster for the NFL? Nobody acts like it and they have a season every year.
There are people on this forum who want Road America. Is Sheboygan a major market? What major market is Watkins Glen in?
Atlanta is a major market. Atlanta is also a lousy sports town. What good does it do to go there and draw flies?
The Indianapolis 500, Chicago, Dallas-Fort Worth, San Francisco (Infineon), Milwaukee, Kansas City, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Detroit, Los Angeles (Long Beach), Miami and Richmond are pretty spread out examples of major markets. Iowa (Des Moines), Kentucky (Cincinnati, Louisville and Lexington), Edmonton (and Calgary), ain't small markets.
To all that goes into a schedule -- Dates, promoters, TV, weather at various times of the year, where the sponsors want to be, where the competitors want to race, where there are places suitable for racing and what else is going on at the time plus where each INDIVIDUAL sponsor and competitor want to be are never going to be 100 percent perfect for ANYONE.
The idea that Atlanta isn't a good sports town is just BS. I've lived here all my life, off and on, and we support teams and events, they just have to be good. This town supports winners. You can't just be the Hawks and play boring, sub .500 basketball and expect people to show up like they would in Oklahoma or Iowa where there is nothing else to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
As for our events not drawing flies: The Le Petit Le Mans is an established success; Georgia Tech and UGA sell out every football game and Tech has a strong basketball following; The Atlanta Thrashers have higher than average attendance, except for last year; Before the face of the Falcons went to jail they were sold out for every home game; the Braves don't have attendance problems; even the NASCAR races draw more fans than 95 percent on of the ovals on the IRL schedule.
I know Atlanta would turn out for the right event if packaged well and in a central location. A street race around Centennial Park area would succeed if held at the right time of year, probably in early April or September, and marketed in the right way.
Every try by Indy cars at Atlanta, from USAC in the '60s to CART to IRL has been a colossal failure.
The Braves made the playoffs many straight years and couldn't sell out a playoff game.
The Falcons, with good teams, couldn't sell out a playoff game.
There're two race tracks in Atlanta -- granted, one is near Jonesville and one near Braselton -- and you're suggesting a street race is the answer there. Baloney. The Petit is the only new racing event to last there in 40-50 years and it doesn't draw NASCAR numbers.
Hockey failed in Atlanta in the in 1970s, so I guess that means professional Hockey could never work in Atlanta.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
I love people who don't live here telling us what Atlanta isn't based on what happened 30 to 40 years ago. In the 1960s Atlanta did not have an affluent metro area with 3 million people, I think it was pretty close to the size of say Birmingham today. Basing a decision on data that is nearly 50 years old is just moronic.
Maybe they didn't sell out every game, but they sold out most of them. I'm sorry we're not St. Louis where we actually have 10 or 20 forms of entertainment to choose from on a Wednesday night.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Uh, keep trying. In 2004 the Divisional playoff game sold out in 11 minutes, and that was the last time Atlanta hosted a playoff game.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Number's and demographics are two entirely different thing. The Petit has great demographics among males with disposable income, much better numbers than average NASCAR or IRL races in the South, which gives advertisers a better value for their money.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Uh, Jonesville is a flyspeck of a town near the Alabama border. You probably meant Jonesburo, which btw isn't even in the same county as AMS. Clearly you're an expert on Atlanta and totally qualified to make decisions about what the city can an cannot support.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Actually the Flames were pretty successful in Atlanta. Unfortunately they got bought by someone from Calgary and got moved.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
MDS:
1. USAC in the '60s is 50 years old. CART in the '80s is not. IRL in the '90s is not.
2. PLAYOFF games, but 10-20 forms of entertainment are more important there.
3. Okay, you got me.
4. Difference between a niche and the masses.
5. Yes, I meant Jonesboro. Without looking it up on the map, you go southeast out of the airport a few miles and it's on the right side of the road.
The key to OWR's success in Atlanta is to tie itself to a number forms of entertainment. If you offer racing on city streets with free live entertainment near bars and restaurants, allow for massive corporate tie-ins with exclusive VIP areas for the rich people to be seen at, work in the hip hop community and you will succeed in Atlanta, in the spring or fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Take the road show to AMS and you'll draw maybe 10,000 if the wether is good. Go to Road Atlanta and you'll be holding a funeral four days later.
But then again, clearly you've flown into Atlanta a couple of times and clearly know the city better than I do. I've only lived here off my entire life, how could I possibly know my city better than an occassional tourist.
*I realize this is off topic, but I'm going to allow some know-it-all tourist to define my hometown.
If you think that would be successful, why don't you put up the money and do it?
No, I haven't lived in Atlanta. I've only come there for events. My impression of it as a lousy sports town has to do with sports only. There are many things I like about the city itself.
the real scheduling question i have is.....and yes i'm posing it directly t you IC....but anyone feel free to chime in
How will/is TG going to make sure that the ICS doesn't fall victim to the same scheduleing problems as CART/CC and become a predomantly street coarse series...
now the easy answer is he just wont... well lets be honest....theres two factors at play here
1. the current ICS is closer to the old CART than 'the vision'
2. when an oval becomes no longer viable...homestead for example.... city goverments semm ready willing and able to pony up cash to get a race....
so how is TG and the IRL going to keep the IRL from becomeing 15 rc/sc v 5 ovals as the schedule progresses over the next 2 to 5 years
Well, Ken, time will tell, but I'll try:
1. TG is committed to ovalcentricity and the draws at most of the ovals have been adequate and/or growing and/or stable. No, Homestead ain't. The others are. And other ovals are waiting in the wings per SMI's statements. So, I don't believe that's going to come anytime soon.
2. After the Denvers and San Joses and Ansans and Zhuhais and Vegases and the cancellation at Phoenix, I doubt that many cities are jumping at the chance to have a street race. I doubt that many promoters are around that will take the chance on a street race without the right deal and sponsors and that's a pretty hard sell.
3. Pook, who mushroomed street racing in his career at Dover and CART, ain't a factor. KK, who tub-thumped it further, doesn't now. And I disagree that cities are clamaoring for races.
4. Just IMO, but TG seems to have a preference for real race tracks as opposed to street races.
5. It is slowly and grudgingly coming out that these street races don't draw what people were told they were drawing and tracks were only building 20-25,000 seats max and a number of them had few GA viewing areas. Well, if you're in Iowa and fill 25,000 permanent seats without the expense of track construction, that isn't any different than what was being drawn at street races with the added expenses involved.
Places like Road America and Watkins Glen have to rely on The great track, History and being a regional attraction. They have to make the event a destination type thing, rather than rely on the ADD type crowds at the street events that rely on bars, posh hotels and convenience. They just are totally different type events. When I attended the F1 races at the Glen, We had a small trailer and camped of course. They always had a concert, movies on Friday and saturday night and the occasional bus burning to keep people occupied in addition to the track action. It's getting harder and harder to find a good crowd of people even comfortable enough BEING in the outdoors, let alone having the equipment to survivie for three days. Sad, Sad change in our society IMHO. Now Camping means a 35 foot trailer with pop outs and king sized beds, generators, satellite TV and a galley rivalling the average person's home kitchens, and an 8 mile per gallon tow vehicle. That's a hard sell against even a $300 a night hotel room ten minutes away from a track.
Where the hell is Cleveland? We put three times the number of butts in the seats as Mid-Ohio (without Ho*da) giving away 15-20,000 tickets) and it was always the #1 or 2 TV audience every year. What is the thinking behind this??
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
from today's list of "Teams nobody cares about" from the Comcast homepage
10. Atlanta Thrashers
The Thrashers have the 22nd worst attendance in the NHL, a little over 15,000 per game. Actually, that's not too bad for Atlanta. (AP Photo/John Amis)
That's the trouble, Toymaker. In reality, you did NOT put three times the number of butts in the seats as Mid-Ohio. That's why, among all the different promoters that Cleveland has had, that IMG just gave the thing back to CART and said, "run it yourself." It lost $$$$.
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Originally Posted by indycool
http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Oth...76731-sun.html
Still speculation....is he ahead or behind? We don't know (I certainly don't).
Anyone else notice the part at the end about Surfers still being a non points race again next year. Does that make any since to anyone??Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
That point was about this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by icehammer97
San Jose, Denver and Vegas were not good, Zhuhai Ansan's not a street course, and Phoenix problem remained an unknown. Long Beach, Surfers, Detroit, Sete Pete's were not bad. See, streets are not overly bad as described a couple of post above mine, it's just another case of things with a couple of good ones, and a couple of bad ones.
The schedule is likely to be released tomorrow, given the hints from recent articles, Nashville saying they will not continue to host a race, and the note at the end of today's Up to Speed feature on indycar.com.
Expect the expected.
Press teleconference announced for tomorrow with Barnhart and Angstadt.