OT-Too Expensive??

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

Yes but in NASCAR Sprint Cup merit gets the seat at this point. The IRL existing teams is pretty much merit, the CCWS teams that swung over is both merit and cash.

the top 4 or 5 teams in cup yes, but there are plenty of teams that will take pay drivers. Just look at the white cars at the back of the field!

For the IRL, so Mutoh didn't get his AGR seat becuase of Hondas backing (see "Formula Dream")? I think with the existing IRL teams it is the same some merit some cash Duno/Bell at DRR both bring money and are not there on merit. Same as the former CC teams GH/JW are in on merit. Camera, Viso, Bernoldi etc in on cash.

In all it is the same. Some merit, some cash.

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Originally Posted by BobGarage

the top 4 or 5 teams in cup yes, but there are plenty of teams that will take pay drivers. Just look at the white cars at the back of the field!

Not ride buyers, I hate to break it to you. Just the Team funding the effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobGarage

For the IRL, so Mutoh didn't get his AGR seat becuase of Hondas backing (see "Formula Dream")? I think with the existing IRL teams it is the same some merit some cash Duno/Bell at DRR both bring money and are not there on merit. Same as the former CC teams GH/JW are in on merit. Camera, Viso, Bernoldi etc in on cash.

In all it is the same. Some merit, some cash.

Yes, some merit, some cash. So of the IRL Teams, Mutoh and former CCWS teams Camera, Viso, Bernoldi etc in on cash.

Bet they will not be back next year and car count will be 22 or less.

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

Yes but in NASCAR Sprint Cup merit gets the seat at this point. The IRL existing teams is pretty much merit, the CCWS teams that swung over is both merit and cash.

Bringing as sponsor with you is also cash. And you can't tell me, nobody is in NASCAR because of his personal sponsor... And by the way: How many f1 drivers in 2008 are their bacause of money?

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CART died because of their own stupidity and the 500 is still there. It lost because the times changed and the generational issues of going to the race are not as important. Numbers to be truthful have been dropping slightly every year from 1987 on.

I don't think, it is that simple...

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Nope but Scheckter would not have won a World Championship with Tyrrell or Wolf. Hunt was lucky but it helped he was with the team that year otherwise he would have been just another driver that drove in F-1.

Winning is being in a position to win. That simple and that easy. Good teams understand that and other teams struggle to get there.

Castroneves probably would not have won two Indy 500s if he had not joined Penske. Why Mutuh leads the rookie standings in IRL?
And why Hendrick in 2007 dominated NASCAR and this year it is so hard for them to win races - with all their cars? The drivers?
But both, Scheckter and Castroneves, got their seats because of their merits. Scheckter never would had driven the Ferrari, without wthat he did at Tyrrell and Wolf.
Hunt never would have been at McLaren without his performance at Hesketh the year before. Every team wants the best driver possible and every driver wants to be in the best possible team. So at the and the best drivers nearly always get the best cars. Some times they need a little luck, but never in formula one history a second class driver has won the championship because of the best car. For example Hunt. Why didn't Regazzoni in the second Ferrari win the cc. The Ferrari was the best car in 1976. And why Jochen Mass in the second McLaren failed even to win a race?
Probably not every year the best driver wins the championship, but that is racing. It's alway a combination of driver, team and car...
Last year is a good example. McLaren would never had lost the championship, if they did not worked against their own driver.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Bringing as sponsor with you is also cash. And you can't tell me, nobody is in NASCAR because of his personal sponsor... And by the way: How many f1 drivers in 2008 are their bacause of money?

Name a personal sponsor in NASCAR. I can't. Yea, Villenueve was to bring a sponsor but it never materized and his ride ended. He by the way was the first I heard of.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

I don't think, it is that simple...

So if you are running 5 laps down with 10 to go you have a chance of winning?

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Castroneves probably would not have won two Indy 500s if he had not joined Penske. Why Mutuh leads the rookie standings in IRL?

Still no Titles and a second in a race helps rookie points.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

And why Hendrick in 2007 dominated NASCAR and this year it is so hard for them to win races - with all their cars? The drivers?

It is competition.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

But both, Scheckter and Castroneves, got their seats because of their merits. Scheckter never would had driven the Ferrari, without wthat he did at Tyrrell and Wolf.

How many World Titles did Scheckter win? One with an outstanding Ferrari.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Hunt never would have been at McLaren without his performance at Hesketh the year before. Every team wants the best driver possible and every driver wants to be in the best possible team. So at the and the best drivers nearly always get the best cars. Some times they need a little luck, but never in formula one history a second class driver has won the championship because of the best car. For example Hunt. Why didn't Regazzoni in the second Ferrari win the cc. The Ferrari was the best car in 1976. And why Jochen Mass in the second McLaren failed even to win a race?

1976 was a competitive year but still McLaren was the better car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Probably not every year the best driver wins the championship, but that is racing. It's alway a combination of driver, team and car...
Last year is a good example. McLaren would never had lost the championship, if they did not worked against their own driver.

Recent history but what team was the best last year?

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/445260

Where the topic actually lies.

oh, really?...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20509.html

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Originally Posted by veeten

oh, really?...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20509.html

"The Australian Grand Prix, beset by speculation that its contract won't be renewed by Formula One organizers after 2010, received a rebuke closer to home Wednesday."

Quote:

Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

Name a personal sponsor in NASCAR. I can't. Yea, Villenueve was to bring a sponsor but it never materized and his ride ended. He by the way was the first I heard of.

So, you have your example...

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So if you are running 5 laps down with 10 to go you have a chance of winning?

So, you don't go 5 laps down without a reason...

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Still no Titles and a second in a race helps rookie points.

And a seat in a top team, or why do you think, Ganassi, Penske and AGR drivers hiolding the first 8? 9? positions in the championship. By the way. Mutoh led the rookie points even before Iowa...

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It is competition.

Ah, the other drivers became so much better during the winter?
There is still a technical aspect, in NASCAR too...

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How many World Titles did Scheckter win? One with an outstanding Ferrari.

The Ferrari was good thus year, but outstanding? Williams scored a couple of wins, Ligier was also good in 1979. And yes, he came close to the championship before, when he didn't have the best car.

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1976 was a competitive year but still McLaren was the better car.

Ferrari won the constructers championship....

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Recent history but what team was the best last year?

Ferrari. But they only won the championship because McLaren didn't work together as a team.

And yes you are right, it is very importtant which car you are driving. But you don't get the best car, if you are not a good driver (except your manaher is the son of Jean Todt...)

operative word being 'speculation'... not to mention the article being referrenced is now a week old.

Let us know when there is a signed agreement between the Austrailian government, FIA, and FOM/CVC to terminate the Grand Prix from 2010 onwards.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

So, you have your example...

One does not make many.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

So, you don't go 5 laps down without a reason...

Really what reason? In some cases you just aren't fast enough. You know Richard Petty came from 5 laps down and won by 5 at Dover? That is being in the right place to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderman

And a seat in a top team, or why do you think, Ganassi, Penske and AGR drivers hiolding the first 8? 9? positions in the championship. By the way. Mutoh led the rookie points even before Iowa...

Your point is?

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Ah, the other drivers became so much better during the winter?
There is still a technical aspect, in NASCAR too...

Kyle Busch wins, then how can they win? Competition is tougher and NASCAR wants that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderman

The Ferrari was good thus year, but outstanding? Williams scored a couple of wins, Ligier was also good in 1979. And yes, he came close to the championship before, when he didn't have the best car.

Who won? The best car right?

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Ferrari won the constructers championship....

Because of Lauda

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Ferrari. But they only won the championship because McLaren didn't work together as a team.

How is that? Driver must carry the day. Team once the race is on does only the chinese fire drill.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

And yes you are right, it is very importtant which car you are driving. But you don't get the best car, if you are not a good driver (except your manaher is the son of Jean Todt...)

That is why Minardi is gone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeten

operative word being 'speculation'... not to mention the article being referrenced is now a week old.

Let us know when there is a signed agreement between the Austrailian government, FIA, and FOM/CVC to terminate the Grand Prix from 2010 onwards.

Thank you.

When the government says no more you can pretty much bet on it. This is not a new story it actually broke before this years race and Bernie just shrugged his shoulders.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...806250459/1004

Another rumor bites the dust.

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...806250459/1004

Another rumor bites the dust.

Really? Doesn't sound like Joey is shoveling any dirt on the grave just yet.

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Chitwood did not rule out the possibility of a race for next year as F-1’s schedule won’t be confirmed until the fall, but he said it gets “tougher and tougher every day” to make it happen.

Gary

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Really? Doesn't sound like Joey is shoveling any dirt on the grave just yet.

Gary

It isn't on the 2009 schedule yet and they have until the fall. No sponsor and not willing to put up $35,000,000.

That tells me Joey and TG got the shovel ready.

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

One does not make many.

Im sure, you've read all the driver contracts...

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Really what reason? In some cases you just aren't fast enough. You know Richard Petty came from 5 laps down and won by 5 at Dover? That is being in the right place to win.

Yeah and in some reasons it's just two laps and just a penalty - but under the right circumstances you win anyway.
It's the same with the CART-product. Tehere was nothing wrong with it on the track at least untill 2001, except losing Indy...

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Your point is?

That being in the right team at the right time isn't formula one specific.

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Kyle Busch wins, then how can they win? Competition is tougher and NASCAR wants that.

Sure, NASCAR does want it to be a driver's championship, but nevertheless being in the right time is also important.

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Who won? The best car right?

By one point and with a lot of luck and only because of team orders in brazil.
The second driver in the best car became fourth...

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Because of Lauda

The drivers championship was won by Hunt because of the car and the constuctor's championship by Ferrari because of the driver.
Maybe you should learn to to concede that you are wrong.
The reason Ferrari won the CWM was not Lauda scoring more points than Hunt but Regazzoni scoring more than Mass...

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How is that? Driver must carry the day. Team once the race is on does only the chinese fire drill.

Perhaps the fact, english not being my native language is not helping to understand your sometimes...

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That is why Minardi is gone.

Because of the Todt/Massa relationship?

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Im sure, you've read all the driver contracts...[/quoute]

Then name one on the Cup series that bought his way in.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Yeah and in some reasons it's just two laps and just a penalty - but under the right circumstances you win anyway.
It's the same with the CART-product. Tehere was nothing wrong with it on the track at least untill 2001, except losing Indy...

What was right about it? Most fans, real fans got tired of it by 1989.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

That being in the right team at the right time isn't formula one specific.

History proves otherwise except for Fangio

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Sure, NASCAR does want it to be a driver's championship, but nevertheless being in the right time is also important.

In 38 races fortunes change in half of that they tend to remain the same.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

By one point and with a lot of luck and only because of team orders in brazil.
The second driver in the best car became fourth...

Ok, whatever.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

The drivers championship was won by Hunt because of the car and the constuctor's championship by Ferrari because of the driver.
Maybe you should learn to to concede that you are wrong.
The reason Ferrari won the CWM was not Lauda scoring more points than Hunt but Regazzoni scoring more than Mass...

This thread is about the expense of an F-1 race that may not happen. Clay beating Jochen is important how?

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Perhaps the fact, english not being my native language is not helping to understand your sometimes...

Pit stops.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Because of the Todt/Massa relationship?

Because Bernie bailed them out?

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

Then name one on the Cup series that bought his way in.

I didn't read the contracts. But hte other way around: The name in f1 that bought his way in?

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What was right about it? Most fans, real fans got tired of it by 1989.

Why? Because a brazilian won the Indy500 and the championhsip?

I know a lot of fans who got excited later. Perhaps the crowd changed and became more international...

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History proves otherwise except for Fangio

Who knows if the teams that won championships would have done this with other drivers. Would Benetton had won without Schumacher, Renault without Alonso? I doubt. Or long time ago, Brabham without Piquet (twice), Williams in 82 without Rosberg, Tyrrell without Stewart? Who knows...

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In 38 races fortunes change in half of that they tend to remain the same.

That doesn't change the fact that you need the right team and car anyway.

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This thread is about the expense of an F-1 race that may not happen. Clay beating Jochen is important how?

That a McLaren not automatically was faster than a Ferrari....

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Pit stops.

Thanks... I will write "chinese drill" into my dictionary...

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Because Bernie bailed them out?

[/QUOTE]
Lack of sponsors, less money...

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

I didn't read the contracts. But hte other way around: The name in f1 that bought his way in?

Mark Webber, Justin Wilson

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Why? Because a brazilian won the Indy500 and the championhsip?

Nope, lousy racing. If both Al and Emmo crashed, the race would still be going.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

I know a lot of fans who got excited later. Perhaps the crowd changed and became more international...

Nope, no connection to the then 900 tracks that ran weekly shows.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Who knows if the teams that won championships would have done this with other drivers. Would Benetton had won without Schumacher, Renault without Alonso? I doubt. Or long time ago, Brabham without Piquet (twice), Williams in 82 without Rosberg, Tyrrell without Stewart? Who knows...

Yes but history does know.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

That doesn't change the fact that you need the right team and car anyway.

I will change my opinion when Ferrari or McLaren does not win the title.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

That a McLaren not automatically was faster than a Ferrari....

Your point?

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Thanks... I will write "chinese drill" into my dictionary...

You're welcome, we restict the number of men over for safety reasons.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Lack of sponsors, less money...

and Bernie not going to bail out for another year. Do you know what happens if the number of teams falls below 8?

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

Mark Webber, Justin Wilson

Webber gets paid at RedBull, and Wilson is dricing IndyCars...

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Nope, lousy racing. If both Al and Emmo crashed, the race would still be going.

There were a lot dnfs thus year. But even in the old times, there were big gaps from time to time...

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Nope, no connection to the then 900 tracks that ran weekly shows.

They have more international fans?

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Yes but history does know.

What does it know?
1950,1952,1955,1960,1961,1967,1978,1979,1984,1987, 1988,1989,1992,1996,1997*,2002,2004
That's the years when teammates finished first and second in the championship. In all other years minimum one driver findished between the world champion and his teammate in the same car. So it's hard to say, it's only the car. In this case, teammates everytime would finish first and second.
So it's 16 (17 if you count 1997) times out of 58!

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I will change my opinion when Ferrari or McLaren does not win the title.

The last time it happend two years ago.

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Your point?

There is no evidence for McLaren being better than the Ferrari this year.
ANd by the way: If the McLaren would have been the better car, that would work against your arguments, because Lauda in the Ferrari dominated 1976, until his accident.

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You're welcome, we restict the number of men over for safety reasons.

Congraulations!

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and Bernie not going to bail out for another year. Do you know what happens if the number of teams falls below 8?

[/QUOTE]
Bernie would found a team... But with the best ten teams getting a lot money from the foca there is no chance we will have less than 20 cars...

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Webber gets paid at RedBull, and Wilson is dricing IndyCars...

That is how both got to F-1.... A ride buy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderman

There were a lot dnfs thus year. But even in the old times, there were big gaps from time to time...

That's racing.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

They have more international fans?

Nope, not enough drivers with names that can be pronounced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderman

What does it know?
1950,1952,1955,1960,1961,1967,1978,1979,1984,1987, 1988,1989,1992,1996,1997*,2002,2004
That's the years when teammates finished first and second in the championship. In all other years minimum one driver findished between the world champion and his teammate in the same car. So it's hard to say, it's only the car. In this case, teammates everytime would finish first and second.
So it's 16 (17 if you count 1997) times out of 58!

Yup I believe 1994 was the only year since 1908 and NASCAR not yet?

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

The last time it happend two years ago.

Good.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

There is no evidence for McLaren being better than the Ferrari this year.
ANd by the way: If the McLaren would have been the better car, that would work against your arguments, because Lauda in the Ferrari dominated 1976, until his accident.

Look, you think that is racing. Here in this country it is contrived racing. Me, I frankly don't care, if you want to twist the history fine but it has always been a series for a few.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Congraulations!

Amazing 5 guys doing what an army of guys in 2 more seconds.

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Originally Posted by Spiderman

Bernie would found a team... But with the best ten teams getting a lot money from the foca there is no chance we will have less than 20 cars...

Better because otherwise the surviving teams would have to cough of another car.
After 2010, no customer cars there you go.

ALSO: THE AUSTRALIAN GP is on UNTIL 2015. An agreement was made and both Victoria and Bernie are happy. The race will not run at Night like the Europeans wanted but will start at 5:00PM local.

So we can close this thread.