It's true. Alonso extracted 110% of performance of his Ferrari, at the time when Massa did only 97%.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
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It's true. Alonso extracted 110% of performance of his Ferrari, at the time when Massa did only 97%.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
It would take some major F***Up for Mercedes and Hamilton not to take the Constructors and Driver championship now. The sort of mess up that would cause major reshuffle of the Mercede F1 management.
I have a feeling that Ferrari are probably going to make a similar reshuffle of their F1 management for 2019. There is a likelihood that Arrivabene may be taking a long holiday with a new face stepping up to take the helm of this promising team.
I simply fail to see how Ferrari have got their season so wrong with such a fantastic car. I am not a Ferrari fan but l still feel some frustration that they could not mount a flawless challenge to the Mecedes that has struggled for most of the season to keep up.
That said, Hats off to Mercedes, they are by any measure the best F1 team of this generation. Toto Woolf has become a maestro and maybe the definitive team boss. He probably should be if he sorts out the Mercedes junior driver programme.
Have only watched highlights of recent races, so not going into detail about events.
But generally speaking looks like Hamilton is going to win his fifth WDC, and based on performance he deserves it. I think one day we are going to look back and say that Hamilton is an F1 legend. He is that good. I'm impressed.
Vettel on the other hand has thrown away about 2-3 potential race wins with his mistakes and that's why he is already some 50 points down. So losing the title or at least not battling to the very end is basically down to him. That's kind of sad, because you would expect more from someone, who has been hired to be Ferrari's #1 driver to lead their title charge.
I have to admit that I also expected more from Vettel, especially considering mentally he managed the title fights in the closing stages of 2010 and 2012 just fine. But now it looks like he hasn't got the nerves to handle the pressure at the front. Weird that. Already last year he had that Baku meltdown, but it hasn't got any better in 2018, has it?
Also it's disappointing, because I think F1 fans deserve a grandstand finish like we got in 2016. But if one driver is a let-down in critical moments, then we are not going to get it and it's going to be an anti-climatic finish to the season.
Of course the exciting news at least concerning 2019 is that Leclerc is going to be promoted to Ferrari. We have had Hamilton-Vettel duopoly basically for the decade and good to see some fresh faces having a go and to be honest I already like the guy. Hopefully he lives up to the promise and doesn't become a crashaholic at the front like happened to Vettel, because one day someone has to bring the fight to Hamilton and possibly de-throne him!
As it seems Kimi will be ferraris last WDC for a very long time. And, I´m not glad for this, its sad.
You mean Kimi will remain Ferrari's last WDC as long as Hamilton hasn't retired or joined Ferrari? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mia 01
The last two races typify the change in fortune that transpire when the momentum of the development battle between the main title contesting teams swings from one to another. As a matter of fact, you could go back even further to Singapore. In the first half of the year, Ferrari had the upper hand. Mercedes were clearly frustrated that their cars were struggling to keep up with the black prancing horse. Unfortunately, Ferrari did not make hay when the sun was shining.
After the summer break, Mercedes found a solution to the problem that was stifling their potential. They knew the potential of their car was on par with the Ferrari but it was not as efficient as the Ferrari on some tracks. When they applied the ingenious solution to their tyre rims, they found they had not only released the true potential of the car, the car turned out to be faster than the Ferrari.
All the damage limitations and fortuitous opportunities that Hamilton was able to exploit during the first half of the season , finally started to pay dividend as he began to extract the full potential of the new found speed of the Mercedes. Hamilton started to gather momentum from the German GP. Singapore which is suppose to be a bad track for Mercedes was the eye opener as he sustained championship momentum with a brilliant performance. And that mersmerizing Q3 lap that took pole at Monza underlined the fact that Mercedes were back on form and it became all too clear that Vettel had a hill to climb.
I could see that Mercedes' new found speed rocked Ferrari with surprise. They were scrambling since, to find an answer to the Mercedes, and have failed on all fronts so far.
The main revelation of this 2018 season was the confirmation that Vettel is brittle and impatient under pressure. He threw away precious opportunities as what seemed like red mist moments became a feature of his races. It was very clear that he was frustrated with everything, the car, the pitwall etc.
That said Ferrari are also now paying dearly on the constructors championship front by not getting the most out of Raikonen. Kimi should be winning when Vettel is unable to win. Unfortunately, the Raikonnen side of the Ferrari garage seem to be grossly incompetent. Their strategy calls were the worst in the entire grid. So kimi was always displaced from the best positions where he could have extracted more from races where opportunities were available if he were properly located.
This was a season where Hamilton has shown to all his typical critics what a truely awesome driver he is. His mettle when things were not quite in his favour and his characteristic predetorial driving has faired really well for him in this historic title fight. It was not quite a Prost Vs Senna type battle on track, but you cannot quite blame Hamilton for that, Vettel simply did not sustain a flawless and meticulous title fight.
To me, 2018 confirmed my initial belief that Vettel is not in the top echelon of drivers historically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
I remember his last year at RBR and 2 of his championships slightly tainted by the complete railroading of Webber's side of the garage.
It seems to me he does not deal well with competition, intra team or with another competitor.
I cannot stress enough how true and important this statement is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Kimi was maligned from the first day Vettel walked in.
And it only continued with bizarre strategies and downright shambolic actions the highlights of which was "forgetting to call him in"
I'll be really interested to see what happens with leclerc next year, especially when he starts outpacing vettel.
Remember Kimi initially was outpacing Vettel before and even if he messed up a little in qualy, was always on par or just that bit faster in the races.
Also that Vettel should not have been the 2010 champion had Alonso not had his head in the clouds and found a way past Petrov instead of expecting him to move over.
I am very eager to see how far up the grid Kimi can put the Sauber.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
2017 and 2018 have confirmed Hamilton is a F1 legend. And it has also confirmed a suspicion I always had - that Vettel is over-rated, can't handle pressure and needs a complete bubble of support to succeed.
It is sad to me that Fernando Alonso was so bad at managing his career, when he should still be in the Ferrari and we would be having an absolute battle royale for the 2018 championship between, without question, the best two drivers in F1.
As for Vettel, you have to think how good he actually is and how much his early career was helped by Red Bull choosing him over Webber.
2009 - Vettel and Webber closely matched.
2010 - Vettel and Webber both compete for title. Vettel is quicker overall but makes more mistakes. Crucially, the collide in Turkey. It is Vettel's fault - but Red Bull blame Webber... Webber should have quit at end of 2010.
2011. Vettel has now negotiated Driver One status. The Red Bull is way beyond any other car on the grid. Easy for Vettel regardless of ability. Nevertheless, spins off from the lead in Canada on the last lap under pressure from Button.
2012. Alonso has the 4th best car on the grid and almost wins the title. Indeed, he should have, without bad luck from start-line accidents. Vettel wins with the fastest car, despite mistakes in Abu Dhabi and Brazil, his car survives. Most undeserving championship I can recall.
2013. The Red Bull is quickest but other cars in the mix until Pirelli make a mess (as usual) and then change the tyres, which favours Red Bull and hands Vettel a 4th title.
2014. Ricciardo comes and outpaces Vettel comfortably........winning three races to Vettel's zero.
2015. Vettel at Ferrari now, and has chosen Raikkonen as Number Two, who was annihilated by Alonso in 2014. Wins three races.
2016. No wins and barely beats Raikkonen in the championship despite generally being quicker.
2017. Has a car capable of winning the championship. Makes mistakes at key times and in key battles. Loses championship to Hamilton,
2018. Has an ever better car capable of winning the championship. Makes even more mistakes and in key battles. Loses championship to Hamilton AGAIN.
If Ferrari want to win the Championship, they need to get rid of Vettel. HE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Looking forward to seeing Leclerc, but if I was Ferrari I'd be on the phone to two people who have beaten / matched Lewis Hamilton:
Fernando Alonso
Nico Rosberg
I think you're pretty harsh on Vettel. He's made some errors that have been costly this year. But in hindsight, it wouldn't have mattered as MB is still clearly the best car in the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
I don't know what her did that was so bad last year? He had a great season, it's just the MB is better.
Ricciardo was better than him in 14, but that's a credit to Ricciardo rather than a clear demonstration of how inferior Vettel is.
You look throughout his career, whenever Vettel's down, he comes back up. In 10, he just got away with all the errors to win the championship, but then he blitzed everyone the following year. 0 wins and beaten in 14, 3 wins and threatening Rosberg for 2nd in 15. 0 wins in 16, championship challenger in 17.
We're expecting similar levels of performance from Ferrari and MB next year? Don't be surprised if Vettel rejuvenates, learns from this year, and really makes the title a close race and establishes himself as an elite F1 driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
Tbh, Vettel is not going to win any championship with Ferrari if they do not sort out their operational efficiency. When there are operational errors and pressure to win, the team environment becomes self defeating. Consequently drivers begin to make lots of mistakes as well. It would be a mistake to underate Vettel based on a year that demanded flawless excellence to have a chance of winning one or both of the championships. Especially going against the current best driver and team combination in Lewis Hamilton and Petronas Mercedes.
This monumental combination required meticulous preparation for each race weekend coupled with flawless operational execution at each race. If there is anything to be learnt from 2018, it is that Ferrari is not ready to be constructors world champions. Having a great car and a brilliant racer such as Vettel is half the job done. I think Vettel in the Ferrari car with the Mercedes team running the operations would have won the title. But that says alot about how good Hamilton is, to be on the verge of closing the championship with four races to go in a Mercedes that was just ahead of the Redbull for most of the first half of the season.
When Mercedes found their mojo, they instantly became untouchable such that most people forget how frustratingly slower than the Ferrari the Mercedes was. We forget that Vettel was favorite to win this championship even when Hamilton caught up in the points. Hence this championship was lost by Ferrari rather than being squarely beaten by Mercedes.
Mercedes and Hamilton did the rubber dub, soaking up the punches in the first half. And started to throw some of their own in the second half. Hence l agree with your assessment of the situation.
I would say Ferrari had the better car in the first part of the season. I think the Death of Sergio Marchionne has affected the team without a doubt. In Hungary, a race should have been theirs, they lost. They retaliated in Spa, but since then Hamilton appears to have raised his game and I don’t know if Ferrari faltered or did Mercedes just out fox them at every turn. It had been pretty strange turn of form. It was probably a mixture but that big upgrade Ferrari brought to Signapore didn’t seem to work as well as it should. Ferrari messed up qualifying in Japan and Monza. The upgrade Mercedes brought to Singapore (I think it was) for tire management seems to have sorted their tire management issues and that gave Mercedes the opportunity to be more aggressive on set up. All small things but I am surprised at the Ferrari and the way they have faltered in the second half of the season, yet again.
Having given it some considerable thought. I think Hamilton will be the first to 5 wdc.
That is such a good point that I think so , too .Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
Mercedes leads Ferrari by merely 66 points with a possible max of 129 points still on the table. With the pace shown by Ferrari at Texas, it is looking very possible for Ferrari to sneak up on Mercedes and steal the Constructors title. The real fight of the rest of the season is the fight for the constructors title which is very much undecided but Mercedes have a lead which is by no means comfortable.
Ferrari has turned up to the US GP with what was revealed to be their pre-singapore chassis which gave Mercedes such headache in the first half of the season, and have resumed their dominant form. Some have suggested that Ferrari has lost ground because they turned away from this chassis chasing new developments that has not worked. Hence there is some rumours that if they had stayed with this chassis that won the US GP, they would have dominated both title fights. It would seem Vettel has suffered the most from this.
Whatever the case, Ferrari has found its way again and seem well placed to cause serious headache to Mercedes as the fight for the constructors title takes a new vigorous turn heading to Mexico. Ferrari would need at least 1st and 2nd place finishes over the next three races to be quite sure that the constructors title is theirs. If Hamilton finishes third in all of those races, he would comfortably be the 2018 drivers world champion.
The reds were back on form , but Merc filled the holes in their trick new wheel design with silicone before racing them , apparently , so some of their aero was missing , leading to , eventually , blisters .
Had they not done so , protest and possible DSQ could have taken the race away entirely .
CONGRATULATION LEWIS !
LEWIS HAMILTON - 2018 DRIVER WORLD CHAMPION
5 TIMES WORLD CHAMPION and modern day F1 legend
I suppose the next question is, has Hamilton got two more championships in him to match the great Michael Schumacher. As 2018 got better than 2017, l am expecting 2019 to be even better than this season. Redbull and Honda is looking like a divine union that could really upset the order of the sharp end of the grid. Ferrari have learnt some very hard lessons this season. Hence, l expect them to turn up next season more determined and prepared than ever to set things straight.
But Mercedes also had some hard lessons of their own to learn. They have won the drivers title with a car that was marginally good enough to win the drivers title and largely because they had the best driver on the grid in it. Often it had looked embarrassingly slower than the competition. This 2018 Mexico GP was the first time in ages that a Mercedes was lapped. Hence, it is safe to say, the chassis architecture for 2018 car is spent and belongs in the past, they need to find a new platform fast and one that is more agreeable with the 2019 rules. The luck that came their way this year may not be available next year, hence it is likely to be even more harder next year to keep the Ferrari and Redbulls behind. But l have every faith that Mercedes would do what it takes to stay ahead.
Vettel is truly classy in defeat. Not many drivers in his circumstances would go out their way to congratulate the winning team personally. I have been a fan of his and he just won my utmost respect.
Agreed. very classy by Seb. He has usually been classy in defeat. Usually upon reflection.
Hamilton's performance went up after he broke up with his girlfriend. On the other hand, Vettel's performance went down after he go married. Coincidence?
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but would anyone else agree that had Rosberg been at Mercedes this year, neither Lewis nor Nico would have won the championship? Nico was a stronger (and more combative) teammate than Valteri. And I believe that while Hamilton would have outscored Nico, the two of them would have taken enough points off of each that neither would outscore Vettel (even with all of his many errors).
Just a passing thought.
It's a fair question, but I don't think so. Hamilton is leading by 64pts atm, which is way too big a margin to have made a difference to Vettel. Rosberg wouldn't just be taking points off Hamilton, but Vettel as well. For example Australia, Vettel won due to fortunate circumstances. But you wouldn't think Rosberg would crash in qualifying like Bottas did. SO in that scenario, even if Rosberg qualified behind Hamilton, he'd be getting the benefit of the freebie win instead of Vettel.
Fair point, but also keep in mind that Rosberg would most likely take more points off Hamilton than he would off Vettel. For instance, if Mercedes is the dominant car in a race and the final result is Rosberg-Hamilton-Vettel, Hamilton only gets +3 points on Vettel, as opposed to +7 if he won and Vettel was second. Of course Hamilton-Rosberg-Vettel means +10 for Hamilton as opposed to +7 with Vettel in second, but with a dominant Merc, you could easily have Hamilton-Bottas-Vettel instead, so there's not much of a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
Similarly, if Ferrari was the dominant car and Vettel were to end up in first, having Hamilton finish in fourth behind Räikkönen and Rosberg would result in a -13 point deficit, as opposed to -10 if he were to end in third.
If the Ferrari and Merc were on the same level, then eventually it would boil down to driver ability to have one finish in front of the other, but when car performance is the deciding factor, it's obvious that having two competing drivers will harm both their prospects.
That said, if you swapped Bottas for Rosberg AND kept all of Vettel's mistakes, I'm confident that the drivers' championship would have the same owner, even if most certainly Hamilton might have had to wait a while longer to celebrate it.
Quite true, it would have been something like the Alonso vs Hamilton pairing at Mclaren 2006. How Ferrari wished Bottas was much stronger this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
The damage to Hamilton would have happened in that period where the Mercedes was lagging behind the Ferrari. Rosberg may have taken enough points from Hamilton at that stage but not from Vettel in a faster Ferrari. I think, enough to cause the eventual gap to be very close or marginally ahead. At least for Vettel to be either slightly ahead or just behind Hamilton to force the fight to the last race.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
There has never been a period where MB were "lagging" behind the Ferrari.
The question was fair enough. When you look at it in depth, there's no way Vettel's winning this championship. Within the realms of being reasonable, the current margin is too big.
Hamilton's leading by 64pts. Even if Hamilton/Bottas swapped positions every time they scored a 1-2 (4 times), that's 28 points you can knock off Hamilton's score, so then he'd be leading by 36, which is a comfortable position. Then you could talk about the Vettel's errors costing him the title.
Alternatively, I've already posted that Australia was a race Rosberg would've won on the safe assumption he wouldn't have crashed in qualifying like Bottas did, so that 7pts you can knock off Vettel. Dare I say, a more confident, experienced Rosberg might've got past Vettel in Bahrain.
It's a question better asked about 2017. But having looked at the points, the more pertinent question is whether Rosberg could've gone back to back.
Sorry buddy, you completely miss my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
What was your point then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Wow, I fully expected you to get it, l give upQuote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Sorry , I was reading a debate , and wanted to see another well-reasoned response to JMR's post .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
You said he missed your point , so I wanted to understand your side of it better .