Israel refuses peace negotiations

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Originally Posted by Magnus

It would be really interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter rani! how do you think the conflict should be solved? What do you think abt the possibilities? In sweden it is very difficult to take any other positition than that Israel is the bad guy, it sems, all though the swedish foreign minister carl Bildt has a quite healthy point of view, I think.
And what do the Israelis think generally? Do they feel that the israeli government are doing the right thing?

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First of all, I think the Palestinians are way overdue for a country of their own in Gaza and the West Bank. Ever since Yasser Arafat passed, there seems to be a void in the area of leadership for them. Arafat had a chance to achieve great things for his people when former PM Ehud Barak offered him perhaps all that the state of Israel could ever offer, but Arafat declined and in his late years seemed to prefer terrorism and corruption over advancing the peace process.
Ever since, and even more so now that the Hamas is in power in Gaza, it seems that there isn't a viable partner for peace. This latest "offer for ceasefire" is only out because Hamas is starting to feel the heat in Gaza, and they want to reorganize (in my view at least). I think Hamas will never agree to a permanent solution that will include Israel retaining it's current territories excluding Gaza and the West Bank.
Israel is a very troubled nation these days. Problems like ever growing social economic gaps, emigration of bright minds abroad and masses of young people who cheat their way out of enlisting to the army are all major challenges we will have to face in the future.
Concerning the government, I think that PM Olmert is one of the worst leaders we've had for the past few decades. In fact it is widely perceived that the second Lebanon war was waged very poorly, especially on behalf of PM Olmert and former defense minister Amir Perez.
As you can tell I am not too optimistic (at least for the time being). I hope to be able to see this conflict resolved in my life time (and I'm not even 23 yet), because it's not a simple matter at all.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Would you negotiate with a government that:
A. Doesn't think you have the right to exist (don't you think it's absurd offering a ceasefire to someone you truly believe should be wiped from the land?)
B. Targets CIVILIANS with rockets and mortars. It's not like there aren't any soldiers around, it's just that when you kill innocent children than you hit 'em where it hurts.
C. Has been holding Gilad Shalit (an Israeli soldier) captive for a year and a half without him facing judge nor jury.
Would you negotiate ?
I think what you stated is a pretentious and condesending, and it also shows that you have a very superficial understanding of the situation.

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The problem is that Israel itself also never seems willing to go the whole hog and give the Palestinians what they want. With wounds this old it takes something special to sort things out. Not tit for tat fighting. Palestinians fire rockets on Israel so the Israeli's go and fire missiles on the Palestinians.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I would at least try to talk to them to find out what their problem is with that and to find out if there's something we could do to reach a compromise.

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Their problem is that they don't recognize that Israel has a right to exist. I guess compromise in this issue would have to be us packing up and moving to Mars. I bet you'd be satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Their rockets and mortars are so poorly guided and aimed they don't know where they land. Often they land on uninhabited areas. They don't have laser and GPS guided weapons like Israel (and yet Israel had the nerve to claim the bombing of the UN station in Lebanon was an accident) .

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You actually claim that they "accidentally" hit civilians? give me a break. Have you ever seen a mortar? Believe me that you can control where it hits to a radius of 100 meters easily. I agree the Kassam rockets are pretty crude (but impressive in their simplicity) but they too can cause major damage to a house.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/3d1...4!OpenDocument
I guess they are aiming towards agricultural land. That explains why people regularly take to the streets and celebrate by throwing candy whenever civilians are killed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ0bWEnW_WU -in this instance celebrating 9/11.
Concerning what you said about the bombong of the UN statiom. War is a messy, dirty, horrible and gruesome thing. Guided weapons miss and sometimes even kills friendly forces (not only UN but also IDF) in the chaos when targeted wrongly. That doesn't make it deliborate.

Just like Israel accidently gets civilians with their missiles? :)

How many times did that UN station call to ask for the firing to stop?

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Originally Posted by Rani

You actually claim that they "accidentally" hit civilians? give me a break. Have you ever seen a mortar? Believe me that you can control where it hits to a radius of 100 meters easily.

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Depends on the mortar and its operators, I guess. A home-made mortar with untrained operators probably isn't as accurate as factory made mortars with trained operators. I don't know that much about aiming a mortar, I was in field artillery myself, but at least aiming artillery requires setting up the guns and their optics, measurements and calculations to aim accurately. That requires time, which I think the palestinians are short of if they want to avoid being captured or killed.

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Originally Posted by Eki

That requires time, which I think the palestinians are short of if they want to avoid being captured or killed.

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They also employ the tactic of using residential areas (a few months ago even using a school- actual footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht2B9KaDAEw) as cover .
I agree the Hamas is inferior in weapons and training. I just think that deliberately targeting innocent people instead of soldiers is a cowardly deed.
I also hold an opinion that using some poor family's yard as a launch pad - effectively making the family your human shield, is a cowardly deed.
When the other side has casualties, no one in Tel Aviv (or anywhere else around here) parties in the street. On the contrary.
I urge everyone whose ever held an opinion about this confict to watch this film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6MafdQcATQ. It's from a few years back but nothing has changed since then. Even if you hate Israel to the bone please bear it and watch it to the end. I await your comments.

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Meanwhile, a Cabinet minister confirmed that Israel has yet another plan to build hundreds of apartments in disputed east Jerusalem and the West Bank

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Well now, who would have seen that one coming down Main Street? Wonder what that plan will cost U.S. taxpayers? :dozey:

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Originally Posted by Rani

deliberately targeting innocent people instead of soldiers is a cowardly deed.

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What are their choices then, if they want to go on fighting? Nothing, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Eki

What are their choices then, if they want to go on fighting? Nothing, I guess.

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Does that mean you justify intentional harming of innocent people?
If it does, than I have to say I don't get it. Could you imagine yourself aiming your own artillery at a city center?
It's exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Does that mean you justify intentional harming of innocent people?
If it does, than I have to say I don't get it. Could you imagine yourself aiming your own artillery at a city center?
It's exactly the same.

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No, I mean what's wrong in resistance? There was resistance when the Nazis tried to expand their "Third Reich" to Poland. I don't see much difference in today's Israel and the past "Third Reich". They both want/wanted more "lebensraum" (room to live in) and have a "winner takes it all" attitude. Neither are/were ready to compromise and share.