Suddenly and Surprisingly Strong Seasons (Drivers)

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Originally Posted by rjbetty

They can be any motorsport I guess.

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Any motorsport?

Okay, I tell you one thing.

How did Nicky Hayden win the World Championship in 2006? While in other seasons he has proven to be inferior to all the Aliens, including Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa. And generally he has just looked like your standard good midfield rider.

But no, in 2006 he won the championship! This was the season, when Rossi's Yamaha engines were blowing up, Pedrosa was a rookie, Stoner was a rookie, so there was no good competition. Capirossi and Melandri were also title contenders IIRC, also for the only time in their Moto GP careers!

jens,
Next time please make it clear what championship you are talking about! It's only in the last line of your post that you mention Moto GP.

I remember Hayden stepping up in 2005, so doing well in 06 didn't surprise me. But winning the c'ship is something I'd wouldn't have expected. Despite all the reasons against, I would still say he was the best rider in 06. Even if he wasn't dominant.

As a kid whenever I'd watch the ATCC, it always confuse me when the commentators would mention Alan Jones being an F1 champ. These are back in the days where I was less aware of my motorsport history. When Alan Jones drove for Frank Gardner, in either the Ford Sierra or BMW. He wasn't often on the pace, even compared to his teammate.

So when AJ started winning in the 93 ATCC, it was definitely sudden and a surprise! Wins at Symmons Plains and Lakeside, and leading the series halfway. His team mate/boss Glenn Seton got over the top of him in the end. But Glenn winning the title wasn't as surprising as AJ challenging for it!

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Originally Posted by journeyman racer

I remember Hayden stepping up in 2005, so doing well in 06 didn't surprise me. But winning the c'ship is something I'd wouldn't have expected. Despite all the reasons against, I would still say he was the best rider in 06. Even if he wasn't dominant.

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Yeah I remember this one so well. I was following Moto GP pretty closely between 03 and 06 (mainly cos my brother got the 2002 game for the PS2, so we got into it through that).

Well I always felt Rossi was still the best rider, but I felt he got complacent. He seemed to make very heavy weather of his campaign that year. Hayden just kept bringing in solid points and managed to take it to the final race. Still thought Rossi would get his act together that day, and get the job done. Yet he made a mistake iirc? And ended up losing it - I was stunned! But I liked Hayden so was happy for him, but definitely felt it was more that Rossi threw that season away.


Whatever happened to Makoto Tamada btw? Seem to remember him being something of a rookie through these years, always improving and coming very close several times before finally scoring a victory at some point.

Getting really obscure now, but anyone remember Irish dude Matt Gilmore in British F3 in 2001? He was a rookie in the scholarship class that year and seemed to be the best driver in a very strong bunch, but had glandular fever and ended up losing the title to the more consistent (and bigger name) Robbie Kerr.

Always remembered that, cos afterwards he stepped up to the main class, but never impressed or looked as good again, and dropped off the radar. I never heard from him again.


Max Papis in CART 1999 is another good one, in the same year Frentzen had his time in the sun in F1. 5th in the championship on his debut in a top team (replacing Bobby Rahal). Incidentally, that seat left by Rahal's retirement was going to be a shoe-in for Frentzen at one point; his dreadful time at Williams resulting in HHF looking like he would have to leave F1 altogether!

Papis never looked so good after that. I feel tbh it was because the class of 1999 wasn't the greatest standard ever (drivers like de Ferran and Greg Moore were in less competitive teams). Kenny Brack then joined and completely overshadowed Mad Max.


In the WRC, Harri Rovanpera and Armin Schwarzs' 2001 seasons both really stood out for me, but they never looked so good again.

To recap, Rovanpera's risk to leave the works SEAT team for a tiny programme of private Toyota runs paid off as he bagged a 4th and a 3rd, earning him his big break as part time 3rd driver for Peugeot in 2001. He won on his debut in Sweden! He looked to emulate Gronholm's amazing story from the year before; he scored more podiums and was in the title fight throughout, finishing just 8pts off champion Burnsie. But then was completely overshadowed by Gronholm, never winning again.

Schwarz meanwhile stunned me by hustling his massive Skoda Octavia to 4th in Monte Carlo, right up with the works Fords on the podium, before leading the legendary Safari, looking on for 2nd, before problems dropped him to a still amazing podium in 3rd. He followed that up with 5th in Rally GB. He was then made to look average by Freddy Loix at Hyundai, and by various new team mates on his return to Skoda, before retiring.

I've got a cracking stat about the 2006 MotoGP season. I read it in a magazine the week afterwards, and it's one you never forget. So you remember Troy Bayliss competing in the season finale in Valencia, his only MotoGP race for the year? He won it leading every one of the 30 laps of that race. Nicky Hayden lead 29 laps for the whole year!

It may be a stat to diminish Hayden for that year, but I'll still maintain he was best.

With Rallying, Tommi Makinen winning the 96 title come out of the blue for me. It's harder to follow Rallying. The veteran fans on here can confirm that.

The 93 CART season? Not Nigel Mansell, but Raul Boesel. He did very well without winning. The Motor racing Gods should've gifted him at least one Indycar win during his career.

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Originally Posted by journeyman racer

I've got a cracking stat about the 2006 MotoGP season. I read it in a magazine the week afterwards, and it's one you never forget. So you remember Troy Bayliss competing in the season finale in Valencia, his only MotoGP race for the year? He won it leading every one of the 30 laps of that race. Nicky Hayden lead 29 laps for the whole year!

It may be a stat to diminish Hayden for that year, but I'll still maintain he was best.

With Rallying, Tommi Makinen winning the 96 title come out of the blue for me. It's harder to follow Rallying. The veteran fans on here can confirm that.

The 93 CART season? Not Nigel Mansell, but Raul Boesel. He did very well without winning. The Motor racing Gods should've gifted him at least one Indycar win during his career.

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Right I'm off work this week so I'm gonna drag up this chestnut.
Yeeeeah I vaguely remember Troy Bayliss at Valencia - I completely forgot about that! I really liked Hayden and was so happy he won, but I felt Rossi definitely got a bit Sebastien-Loeby* and nearly threw it away, except unlike Loeb he actualLy did. Going into the last race, for whatever reason, Rossi had not sealed the deal yet, and I felt in truth he had gotten complacent. No matter, I thought, he will get his head into gear now push has come to shove and get the job done. Except, no, he went and made a mistake iirc and threw the thing away, and so against my expectation Hayden won!

*Loeb's 2009 season - made very heavy weather of that in a way which would make Hamilton proud :D

CART
As for Raul Boesel I don't know enough about him, but I remember hearing his name around late 98/early 99, and he seemed very well regarded. He filled in for Paul Tracy at the opening CART race in 99 (since he had a ban from the previous season!). Tbh I don't really rate Boesel as like I said I only knew anything of him from 99 onwards which wasn't much. Also I remember early last year, I had a couple of hours to kill, so was in the town library reading Tommy Byrne's book (WOW could start a whole thread about him!) and I remember reading how he didn't get on with Boesel in junior formulae basically saying he was a privileged rich guy with a bad attitude who had the best of everything. (He also said something similar of Roberto Moreno, though he was much nicer) IIRC!


Back to F1
Olivier Panis has already been brought up for 1997, but I would like to submit his 2001 season.

In hindsight I can see that I managed to both underrate and overrate Panis. Given I only started following F1 in 1997/98 my memories are of Monte Carlo where listening to Murray and Martin, I got the impression he was definitely one of the better drivers who usually won a race or two every year. But then he broke his legs (incidentally that crash on youtube looks comparatively minor imo. Can't believe that did so much damage. In 2015 I'm sure he would be absolutely fine).

So 1998 and 1999 were my first full Panis seasons. I was surprised at how in 1998, he wasn't able to make any impression at all, though neither were most midfielders sadly due to the huge performance gaps which had opened up between cars after 97. ;( His stock was low after that.

In 1999 however, although at first glance it may not appear so, the car did improve, and I was delighted to see Panis come 6th at the 2nd race in Brazil. It was very rare for me to witness him scoring any points at all since I got into F1 just as he was breaking his legs.

I didn't rate him highly at all, but in hindsight I would say he was quicker than say Johnny Herbert, and quite a few other drivers through that time, so did better than I thought at the time. Though at the time I was impressed with his late season 1999 form, qualifying in the top 6 a few times and running a great 3rd in Japan for a good while till retiring.


It was when he was booted out and given the test driver role at McLaren his stock went up. (I believe this is where the term "3rd driver" originated, from Ron Dennis - surprise!) He compared well with the regular drivers and come the summer he was back in demand, and was either going to go to Benetton or BAR.

Panis's 2001 season was a real highlight for me early on. I expected him to generally be around 0.4sec off Jacques, and definitely be an improvement on Zonta but not much more.

So in the first race, he already qualifies 9th and finishes 4th! Until being penalised to 7th (iirc that was the first ever post-race 25sec penalty) Then in Brazil outqualifies JV and finishes 4th for real. Imola was fantastic as I'm sure I remember him running 3rd for a time amongst Ferraris McLarens etc during the stops. Then he was 5th at Austria.

IIRC he then qualified a great 6th at Canada ahead of Hakkinen!

During 2001-2003 I really thought he was the bees knees. His average qualifying time over 01-02 was only 0.011 slower than Jacques I think! This led me to believe Panis was on the same level as Frentzen or Irvine. It was only much later I realised it was as much to do with just how bad Villeneuve was those years too.

Also in hindsight Panis dropped off at the end of 2001 and didn't shine nearly as well in 2002. I now believe this was because a seat at McLaren had become vacant, filled by Kimi Raikkonen, and Panis realised he had left at just the wrong time, and if he had still been there, he'd have had a great chance of that seat.

Well that's all then.

Olivier Panis...

Fun fact to remember is that after 1997 he never got a podium again, even though he raced in F1 for 6 seasons after that (98-99, 01-04).

If you compare Panis to others, in my estimation comparing him to Irvine sounds just about right. Irvine was also sort of a solid driver, not spectacular, but could have his days. Irvine's statistics were heavily inflated due to the Ferrari period though.

Another thing. I was a Trulli fan. And I remember I used the Panis comparison quite a fair bit to "prove he was good". Because I thought Trulli in 1998-1999 against Panis looked every bit as good as Villeneuve against Panis a few years later. So I thought - this shows Trulli can be as good as your former WDC! Not to mention Trulli matched and then in 2001 beat Frentzen, another highly rated driver from 1999.

If I recall my personal Panis rating, I believe I put him a notch lower than the Trulli/Villeneuve level, but yeah just about where Irvine did sit. Rating him alongside Herbert would have made sense too, but Herbert was older and well past his prime in 2000. I think the Herbert of 1992-1994 reminded Panis. Good midfield driver.

Yeah I felt the same about Trulli at the time too. He was consistently qualifying in the top 10 in the Prost in 1999, doing so in his quiet unobtrusive way. It didn't escape my attention.

Oh yeah I was also aware of that stat about no podiums for Olivier too. It's strange that in later years it looked like he didn't really get it together in races. I don't really know why. In 2001 and 2002 he qualified on average 1.591 and 2.13sec off MS IIRC compared to Jacques with 1.600 and 2.11sec, I think. That's basically equal, yet in both years Jacques clearly got more points in races.

I was also VERY aware of the thought of Trulli Vs Villeneuve around 2001. I hypothesised back then that if they were in the same team Jarno would have the beating of JV, and I still think so.

As for Irvine, I totally agree, he could have some great days, such as Monaco 2001 and Monza 2002, but was otherwise solid not outstanding. I think I actually underrated him in my early years though. Much of my early thoughts on drivers were formed from Grand Prix 2 which I had early 1998. Because on that game in the quickraces Irvine tended to be upper midfield, and only scored 6pts that season compared to Barrichello's 19, I thought he wasn't anything special. I also thought Brundle was a bit cr@p at the time cos the quickraces had him around 13th-15th.

(It's also why I was stunned that Alex Zanardi who was announced for Williams during mid-1998 was the same Alessandro Zanardi who trundled around at the back in a Lotus in 23rd in the game - I thought how can he possibly have gotten so good, since I only knew of him through the game. It was like Jean-Marc Gounon suddenly getting a drive in a top team).

I do think Eddie had at least a couple of tenths on Panis though and I have him very similar to Frentzen, though HHF would have more peaks and troughs, and I gave him the edge.

I would rate those drivers in ultimate ability like this, and give a rough gap of how I think they would compare to MS in a normal season. Villeneuve's is from when he was good, his last good season being 2000.

1.Trulli +0.3s
2.Villeneuve +0.4s
3.Frentzen +0.5s
4.Irvine +0.5s
5.Panis +0.7s

What do you think?

Well, interesting thoughts.

Frentzen is an interesting case, now that we start talking about him. Fundamentally I believe he was as talented as Villeneuve. Just that the 1997 season didn't work out at all for him. In 1998 they were much closer, and obviously 1999 was a fantastic season for Frentzen. Prime Frentzen was a treat, but he was mentally somewhat sensitive and could fall apart, if it didn't work out for him/didn't adapt to the car (1997, 2001). Other than that I'd put Trulli, Villeneuve and Frentzen pretty much on the same level, perhaps JT with a slight edge in qualifying.

I remember Villeneuve's starts were fantastic, especially in 2000. He could regularly gain 3-4 places off the line, which helped his season a lot really! Just like HHF's 1999, JV's 2000 was a great season. In retrospect though - did it look good only because his team-mate was rubbish (like HHF had past-it Hill, JV had Zonta)??? But JV seemed like a top 3 driver on the grid in 2000, which he certainly didn't seem like in 2001 any more.

Panis... now that you mention it. Yeah it seems he was slightly better in qualis than races. But I don't remember all the details about how his races went in BAR. He had some good ones too I think (6th at Monza in 2002, some in 2001). But also had many technical problems. In retrospect impossible to recall, where did he sit against JV in race trim comparison. Perhaps slightly lagging behind overall.

You may have a point that Irvine might have been slightly more convincing than Panis in races, but in qualifying not so. Didn't de la Rosa outqualify Irvine a lot in 2001? Though in races Irvine was better.

I like the Zanardi-Gounon comparison though.:D

Edit: I remember Panis even qualified in top 3 in the Toyota, but they were often low on fuel. But in Toyota he seemed to have a similar tendency. IIRC Panis outqualified da Matta a lot, but in races CDM was often better or at least a match.