Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
The goal of protesters from the very beginning was to oust democratically elected president, and this does not sound to me like rule of law or the way a democratic society should work. This could make sense in Egypt, where they don't get democratic elections anyways, but in Ukraine there was a democratic process and an election coming up soon. I do not buy into the narrative of the innocent peaceful protesters. A truly peaceful protest makes a point and disperses of its own. A proper peaceful protest does not hold the proper functions of government offices hostage. It does not linger in the capital for months paralyzing the work of the government for months.
Wow, you would really have liked life in the G.D.R. If you want some advice: Better read a western media for a change. You aren't going to get really reliable facts from the Pravda. The Maidan protests did not start with the intend to oust Yanukovitch. That's what Putin says, but nothing could be further from the truth. The Ukraine had negotiated an association treaty with the EU. All that was needed was his signature. The parliament, which is the democratically elected voice of the people, was in favour of ratifying the treaty. That includes a majority of Yanukovitch's party of regions.
But Putin threatened the Ukraine with stopping much needed gas and oil deliveries if they signed the EU treaty. So, in violation of what the majority of people wanted, the Ukrainian President rejected the already negotiated treaty and signed a hastily cobbled together memorandum of understanding for an association treaty with Russia. That's what the Maidan movement is about. They protested about rejecting the EU treaty at the 11th hour.
So, since you are so worried about upholding democratic principles in the Ukraine, get your facts right. The only one, who acted undemocratically was Viktor Yanukovich. He violated his oath when he took a decision that was obviously against the will of the majority of the Ukrainian people. Also, not a single gouvernment building was occupied until after the first attacks by Berkut forces.
So a peaceful protest makes a point and disperses? Where the hell do you live? Do you really think that's how we brought down the Berlin wall?? We were on the streets for bloody weeks and didn't go away until Honecker was ousted. He also was a democratically elected general secretary of the Politbureau of the Socialist Party of Unity and Chairman of the National Front of the German Democratic Republic by the way. You haven't got the damnedest clue of what's happening to be brutally honest.
Quote:
It does not really matter who escalated things and started violence first. When they occupy city center and shutdown the government for months, eventually someone, maybe police, will try to end the protests by violent means. Both sides did stupid things. Why did Ukraine parliament abolish the Russian language law just days after ousting Yanukovich? Sounds like a terrible blunder to me.
Shouldn't it rather make you think why people, who unlike the law enforcement authorities do not have weapons of war go as far as risking their lives to achieve change? The Ukranian parliament had every right to abolish the Russian language law. They are - as you say - democratically elected and if a majority of them votes to abolish a law, the law will be abolished. They weren't about to outlaw Russian language. They decided that the Ukrainian language shall be the only official language in all of Ukraine. Why should government officials in Lviv be obliged to handle official business in Russian, just because a minority in Lukhansk, Donezk and the Crimean peninsula refuse to learn Ukrainian? Nobody would demand that all Canadian gouvernment officials have to learn French, so that the Quebecois don't need to learn the country's official language. They wanted to abolish Russian as a second official language in all of Ukraine. The decision did not include any paragraph that said Russian could not be retained as a second official language in regions with predominantly ethnic russian inhabitants, which are Lukhansk, the Donbass and Crimea. We have a Sorbian minority in Germany, but they won't be served in Sorbian anywhere but upper Lusatia. Is that a terrible blunder, too?
You make a lot of great contributions to this community zak, but in this case you're commenting on things you don't know the faintest thing about.
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
We have a Sorbian minority in Germany, but they won't be served in Sorbian anywhere but upper Lusatia. Is that a terrible blunder, too?
How many people speak Sorbian in Germany exactly?
Are you trying to be funny?
Every single Ukrainian has a working knowledge of Russian. For a 10 million, if not more Ukrainians, Russian is their mother tongue.
In the east and Crimea, Russian dominates completely.
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
We have a Sorbian minority in Germany, but they won't be served in Sorbian anywhere but upper Lusatia. Is that a terrible blunder, too?
How many people speak Sorbian in Germany exactly?
Are you trying to be funny?
Every single Ukrainian has a working knowledge of Russian. For a 10 million, if not more Ukrainians, Russian is their mother tongue.
In the east and Crimea, Russian dominates completely.
Russian dominates in the East, because the people there refuse to learn Ukrainian. If people in Quebec decided that they refuse to learn English, would you demand that the rest of Canada adopts French as a second official language? That's just preposterous.
Most Germans have a working knowledge of English, yet it isn't an official language of our country. The Ukrainians have every right to declare Ukrainian their only official language. Ukraine has been independent for 20 years, meaning that people in Donezk, the Crimean peninsula and Luhansk had two full decades to learn Ukrainian - the language of the country they are a citizen of. If they haven't until now, who's fault is that? The Russians, even if they are predominant in the East of the country are still a minority. Should all other Ukrainians now bow to their demands, just because they can't be arsed to learn the countries most widely spoken and official language? Can a Quebecois pass school exam without having learned English?
They didn't plan to make Russian illegal. People in the East could have continued speaking Russian whenever they want to. The only thing that law says is, that the people in the east - like everyone else in the country - when wishing to do official business, like registering a car or renewing their passport are able to do so in Ukrainian. Can you please point me to the nefarious part in that plan? And that's not even counting how ridiculously easy it is for a Russian speaker to learn Ukrainian as the two languages are very closely related, so there is no real justification for refusal to learn Ukrainian if you have a Ukrainian passport.
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
dj,
As I said, cases like Egypt (and GDR) are different. Those were countries with no real democratic process. Ukraine on the other hand, has a democratic process, however weak it may be. Ukraine had four different presidents within the last two decades. If the people want to oust the president, they can vote accordingly during the next election, instead of forcing the issue by illegal means. As I have said, blocking the center of a capital city, building barricades, etc, for a long time is simply unacceptable in any civilized country. Just imagine protesters who are not happy with Obamacare staging the same "peaceful" protest in Washington DC for weeks.
Yes, the language law is absolutely the stupidest thing the Ukrainian lawmakers could have done. Overnight, they send a message, intentionally or unintentionally, that the whole Maidan thing is about getting even with Russian east, rather than displacing a corrupt and unpopular president. What could have been explained as a fight with corruption is now clearly interpreted as an ethnic conflict in the east. If the lawmakers wanted to fix the language laws, they should have waited for a better time.
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Russian dominates in the East, because the people there refuse to learn Ukrainian. If people in Quebec decided that they refuse to learn English, would you demand that the rest of Canada adopts French as a second official language? That's just preposterous.
You're being even funnier in this time.
French does have equal status to English in Canada. How preposterous indeed!
The rest of your post stinks with something I don't wish to be involved in.
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
dj,
As I said, cases like Egypt (and GDR) are different. Those were countries with no real democratic process. Ukraine on the other hand, has a democratic process, however weak it may be. Ukraine had four different presidents within the last two decades. If the people want to oust the president, they can vote accordingly during the next election, instead of forcing the issue by illegal means. As I have said, blocking the center of a capital city, building barricades, etc, for a long time is simply unacceptable in any civilized country. Just imagine protesters who are not happy with Obamacare staging the same "peaceful" protest in Washington DC for weeks.
Yanukovich was ousted by the parliament by a vote of no confidence, which it is entitled to by the constitution of Ukraine. It is in no way different from when the American parliament discussed impeachment of Bill Clinton for shagging an intern. And you are still falsifying information about the Maidan protests. There wasn't a single barricade nor was there a single occupation of gouvernment buildings at the start of the Maidan protests. All these things happened after Berkut troops had run roughshod over the place and a few dozen people had to be carted off to hospital. If a gouvernment attacks the own people for doing what they have a guaranteed right for - peacefull protest the people have a right to fight back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
Yes, the language law is absolutely the stupidest thing the Ukrainian lawmakers could have done. Overnight, they send a message, intentionally or unintentionally, that the whole Maidan thing is about getting even with Russian east, rather than displacing a corrupt and unpopular president. What could have been explained as a fight with corruption is now clearly interpreted as an ethnic conflict in the east. If the lawmakers wanted to fix the language laws, they should have waited for a better time.
Show me one - just one - quote that the language law was passed 'to get even' with the East. Show me one.
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Russian dominates in the East, because the people there refuse to learn Ukrainian. If people in Quebec decided that they refuse to learn English, would you demand that the rest of Canada adopts French as a second official language? That's just preposterous.
You're being even funnier in this time.
French does have equal status to English in Canada. How preposterous indeed!
While both French and English are official languages with theoretically equal status in Canada, bilingual service is only provided where there is sufficient demand (i.e. big cities). In Inuvik you're quite effed if you don't speak English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
The rest of your post stinks with something I don't wish to be involved in.
The only thing that stinks is your utter lack of arguments. Unlike you, I know what I'm talking about as I know both Ukraine and Russia and have lived in both countries for considerable periods of time. You were saying...?
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
While both French and English are official languages with theoretically equal status in Canada, bilingual service is only provided where there is sufficient demand (i.e. big cities). In Inuvik you're quite effed if you don't speak English.
This just keeps getting funnier.
You don't like a fact I have stated, or rather that I corrected you so now it's "theoretical"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
The rest of your post stinks with something I don't wish to be involved in.
The only thing that stinks is your utter lack of arguments. Unlike you, I know what I'm talking about as I know both Ukraine and Russia and have lived in both countries for considerable periods of time. You were saying...?
What stinks is your use of false analogies and incorrect facts.
What stinks even more is that you are promoting something very dangerous along ethnic/linguistic lines. I suggest you rethink that.
What you said will be the very arguments used by those who want secession for Crimea, can you not see that?
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
What you said will be the very arguments used by those who want secession for Crimea, can you not see that?
Not to put too fine a point on it, it was The Autonomous Republic of Crimea up until all of this happened. Technically I don't know if that put it in the same league as Somaliland or not.
Re: Cancel the Russian Grand Prix?
It's quite possible, perhaps even probable that Crimea would have ended up independent anyway after a year or so. Putin wading in just made it all blow up into a massive thing when it didn't need to be.
