Team Leader Button?

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

Well maybe I was in the minority but I didn't think that JB would have been dominated by Hamilton, and history shows that he hasn't.

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Surely you're not taking 2012 into consideration?

Because the F1 that I saw this year showed Button getting absolutely thrashed by Hamilton in the majority of races.

As for the topic, I think Button is being clever. He is marking his territory, so to speak, trying to get the team behind him as the hotheaded "ultra talented rough diamond" (Whitmarsh's quote, not mine) arrives next year. If Mclaren make a car which doesn't give JB the "grip" or the "heat" that his driving style needs, I'm afraid he might be in danger of being outperformed by a newbie.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Surely you're not taking 2012 into consideration?

Because the F1 that I saw this year showed Button getting absolutely thrashed by Hamilton in the majority of races.

As for the topic, I think Button is being clever. He is marking his territory, so to speak, trying to get the team behind him as the hotheaded "ultra talented rough diamond" (Whitmarsh's quote, not mine) arrives next year. If Mclaren make a car which doesn't give JB the "grip" or the "heat" that his driving style needs, I'm afraid he might be in danger of being outperformed by a newbie.

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I am taking the three seasons they were together as a whole, and stick by my comment, given that Jackie Stewart with his "entering the lion's den" comment was was part of the prevailing opinion that Jenson would be dominated by Lewis, and that simply didn't happen.

I agree that Hamilton was the quicker driver over the majority of their 58 races together, and over a single lap for qualifying Lewis was certainly the faster driver, but this was no Alonso-Massa type domination, and whilst people rightly point to the points Lewis lost due to unreliability they seem to forget Italy and Korea this year where Jenson lost good points.

Over the three seasons Lewis scored 10 wins and 657 points compared to Jenson's 8 wins and 672 points - hardly a case of domination.

WT

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Originally Posted by henners88

If you take away all the bad races and are left with the races where both drivers had clean races, no reliability issues, no team blunders, strategy worked out great, and both finished, then it looks a lot more dominant from Hamilton. Stat's are great but they rarely give the true picture.

Jenson ultimately lost out to Hamilton over the 3 year period, but he was also a lot closer in terms of points than he deserved IMO.

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I think that's too simplified. Button is so close, because he didn't have an 'off season', like Hamilton had in 2011 when he was getting in his own way more often than not. It was only this year, when HAM had sorted out whatever made him get his knickers in a twist last year that he returned to old form. Button may be a bit slower on average, but he was more reliable and much less prone to be influenced by off-track distractions.

JB - 14 wins, 1 WDC
Perez - mananged his tyres well a few times

Sergio might be a great talent but he hasn't done anything yet to prove he deserves equal status to a a former world champion. If after 6 races he has been as quick as Jenson then this should change.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

JB - 14 wins, 1 WDC
Perez - mananged his tyres well a few times

Sergio might be a great talent but he hasn't done anything yet to prove he deserves equal status to a a former world champion. If after 6 races he has been as quick as Jenson then this should change.

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Spot on. Whether Button made this statement or not these guys still have to prove their relative worth on the track. This is really a harmless comment by Button IMO.
How many days untill the next race? :)

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

I am taking the three seasons they were together as a whole, and stick by my comment, given that Jackie Stewart with his "entering the lion's den" comment was was part of the prevailing opinion that Jenson would be dominated by Lewis, and that simply didn't happen.

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While Irvine and Stewart's comments were based on the brilliant debut of Lewis, they were still unfounded and I didn't agree with them myself. But you're looking at the whole picture a bit too simplistically IMO. Lewis fairly outclassed Jenson in 2010. 2011 was Lewis' worst year in F1, the only reason why Button finished ahead, but even then Lewis at times steamrolled the opposition and Jenson was nowhere (Nurburgring 2011). In his worst year in F1, he tied Button at 3 wins apiece. In 2012 Lewis took it to another level and severely outclassed Jenson in every area. Lewis had 5 DNFs (to Jenson's 2), because of mechanical failures, none his mistakes, two from strong points finishes, and three DNFs from a dominant race winning position. Add to that several points thrown away by poor pit crew work, and we're looking at a minimum of 100 points lost. Their three years head-to-head would be looking much different at this point.

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

I agree that Hamilton was the quicker driver over the majority of their 58 races together, and over a single lap for qualifying Lewis was certainly the faster driver, but this was no Alonso-Massa type domination, and whilst people rightly point to the points Lewis lost due to unreliability they seem to forget Italy and Korea this year where Jenson lost good points.

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Yes, but not three victories. That's 75 points.

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

Over the three seasons Lewis scored 10 wins and 657 points compared to Jenson's 8 wins and 672 points - hardly a case of domination.

WT

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The superiority was more obvious in qualifying throughout the three years, whereas Jenson may have been better during some races. Even with many more mechanical failures while leading, Lewis still scored more victories and his ability to extract more out of a bad handling car is what puts him in a better light than Jenson too.

Agree that Lewis probably lost a lot of points to mechanical failures in 2012, but think only Abu Dhabi could be called a clear win that went missing.

He was leading in Singapore but who knows what Vettel/RBR may have done in the last 2/3 of the race?

I don't count Brazil as a lost win as he was only in a winning position due to the safety car losing Jenson and Hulkenburg their 45 sec lead, and in both Brazil and Valencia he lost good finishes by not giving up a place. That is a nutshell is the difference between Lewis and Jenson, JB would not have had contact with either Maldonado or NH and so may have sacrified a place but would have brought the car home and scored points that Lewis effectively threw away.

JB lost second in Italy due to mech failure, was totally innocent in the Korea accident, and lost either a second/win in China due to a poor pit-stop dropping him behind traffic enabling Rosberg to cruise the final stint.

As for 2011, just look at the results - especially from mid-season. Jenson consistently scored more points than Lewis

I have never denied that Lewis is "faster" than Jenson, and accept he is able to extract more out of a less-perfect car, merely that he didn't "dominate" him.

The sadness is that they were a perfect pairing for McLaren but it will be fascinating to see how they fare in 2013.

WT

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

Agree that Lewis probably lost a lot of points to mechanical failures in 2012, but think only Abu Dhabi could be called a clear win that went missing.

He was leading in Singapore but who knows what Vettel/RBR may have done in the last 2/3 of the race?

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He retired three times while in the lead of a race, because of mechanical failure, and that's the important point IMO. If we apply the same logic to Button's retirement from second at Monza or pit-stop fumbles at China, who knows what could have happened, he might have binned it anyway or someone else might have overtook him. ;)

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

That is a nutshell is the difference between Lewis and Jenson, JB would not have had contact with either Maldonado or NH and so may have sacrified a place but would have brought the car home and scored points that Lewis effectively threw away.

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How is Hulkenberg's brain fart being attributed to Lewis making contact with him?? :confused: Lewis opened the door and gave him two car's length easily. Is it his fault that NH lost control and banged into him?

As for the incident for Maldonado at Valencia, I believe the undisputed champion of penalties in 2012 could have been a bit more patient and not bang into Lewis. Neither of the two incidents were Lewis' fault.

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

JB lost second in Italy due to mech failure, was totally innocent in the Korea accident, and lost either a second/win in China due to a poor pit-stop dropping him behind traffic enabling Rosberg to cruise the final stint.

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Agreed. But none of Lewis' DNFs were his fault either. He has been faultless this year.

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

I have never denied that Lewis is "faster" than Jenson, and accept he is able to extract more out of a less-perfect car, merely that he didn't "dominate" him.

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While I would admit there was no domination in 2010 and 2011. 2012 however is Lewis dominating over Button by a landslide if you've seen all races and qualifying sessions. Button on many occasions was not even in the same stratosphere, hence by his own admittance his worst year ever.

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

The sadness is that they were a perfect pairing for McLaren but it will be fascinating to see how they fare in 2013.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by henners88

So you are able to give Button the benefit of the doubt when he hits misfortune but not Lewis it seems. For this reason I am actually looking forward to the fact Lewis will be away from the Button/Hamilton comparison gravy train. Hopefully fans will come back down to earth as nothing else matters now. The last 3 seasons are history and a new chapter has started.

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No I'm not trying to be biased in this one, just staing that JB had misfortune as well, and that people have quickly forgotten 2011 or put it down as a "bad-year" for Lewis.

Agree that history is history (and it will record that the best Lewis managed in their three years together was 4th in the WDC and Jenson managed a 2nd), and we move on to hopefully another great season next year.

WT

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

How is Hulkenberg's brain fart being attributed to Lewis making contact with him?? :confused: Lewis opened the door and gave him two car's length easily. Is it his fault that NH lost control and banged into him?

As for the incident for Maldonado at Valencia, I believe the undisputed champion of penalties in 2012 could have been a bit more patient and not bang into Lewis. Neither of the two incidents were Lewis' fault.

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I think we will have to disagree.

To say they were not Lewis' fault is missing my point. I doubt that Jenson would have been involved in either and so would have brought home more points for himself and the team.

If a speeding drunk driver runs over me one night then it might not be my fault but I'll be the one ending up dead.

WT

"To finish first, first one has to finish......"