Top Drivers from 2000 Onwards

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Originally Posted by wedge

JPM - no contest.

Won in Indycar, F1, NASCAR, Grand Am

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He got his butt kicked by Kimi, and by Ralf on several occasions. Also he almost certainly would have been beatn by Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel...

This is a fuller list. Is it any near accurate...?

1.Alonso
2.M.Schumacher
3.Vettel
4.Hakkinen
5.Hamilton
6.Raikkonen
7.Kubica
8.Button
9.Trulli
10.Webber
11.Montoya
12.Rosberg
13.Barrichello
14.Kovalainen
15.R.Schumacher
16.Massa
17.Fisichella
18.Villeneuve
19.Coulthard
20.Heidfeld
21.Sutil
22.Davidson
23.Glock
24.Frentzen
25.Irvine
26.Kobayashi
27.Sato
28.Alguersuari
29.Klien
30.Buemi
31.Panis
32.Wurz
33.Alesi
34.de la Rosa
35.Salo
36.Piquet
37.Liuzzi
38.Nakajima
39.Herbert
40.Pizzonia
41.da Matta
42.Verstappen
43.Bernoldi
44.McNish
45.Zonta
46.Bourdais
47.Wilson
48.Pantano
49.Speed
50.Burti
51.Enge
52.Montagny
53.Firman
54.Albers
55.Bruni
56.Diniz
57.Monteiro
58.Karthikeyan
59.Freisacher
60.Kiesa
61.Gené
62.Badoer
63.Winkelhock
64.Yamamoto
65.Marques
66.Yoong
67.Mazzacane
68.Ide
69.Baumgartner

Sorry for the double post. I want to add explanations and ran out of time (30 mins).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wedge

JPM - no contest.


Won in Indycar, F1, NASCAR, Grand Am

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He got his butt kicked by Kimi, and by Ralf on several occasions. Also he almost certainly would have been beatn by Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel...


This is a fuller list. Is it any near accurate...?


1.Alonso - Ferrari say he's better than the guy below him
2.M.Schumacher - Too many mistakes though I think he has (had) a little more speed than Alonso
3.Vettel - Win (again) in a car that shouldn't and lose graciously, and you might get higher.
4.Hakkinen - I'm sick of people saying he's as good as Schumacher, when he just pipped MS to titles in a rocketship. Ferrari was NOT equal to McLaren in 2000. Coulthard was NOT 0.2sec quicker than Rubens Barrichello!
5.Hamilton - would Hamilton have done what Mika did in '98?
6.Raikkonen - I wish he would team up with Alonso. Too many people for my liking think he's the best in the world...
7.Kubica - 2010 best season, yet outqualified by Petrov x2. Would Michael in his prime have let that happen?
8.Button - Going off the boil when the car does is not a mark of a great.
9.Trulli - Underrated. His RAW talent is as good as anyone above him I think. Monaco qual 2004 - over 0.4sec quicker than Alonso.
10.Webber - Always felt he was underrated.
11.Montoya - Always felt he was overrated. Couldn't handle being beaten by Kimi. He would be better than the others above? Nope.
12.Rosberg - Schu has been too far ahead in too many races.
13.Barrichello - Underrated cos he ISN'T as good as Michael. People fail to realise not many drivers are. Always suffered after '95 perception against Irvine. My sister (an ardent Eddie fan) to this day brings up the 12-5 1995 qualifying stat against Rubens, as proof that Irvine is superior. Amazingly, many people believe this!!!
14.Kovalainen - Underrated for same reason as Rubens.
15.R.Schumacher - If recent F1 fans think Vettel is a brat...
16.Massa - Great at OPTIMISING his lot. Shone in '06-08, but looked less brilliant as more top drivers came through, revealing his true natural level.
17.Fisichella - Fisi will always be my all-time favourite. ALONSO IS BETTER THAN HIM - I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. Still stuffed in '05 by Flav though. I'm convinced and have my reasons. I know about the constructors and all those arguments. I knew before that season.
18.Villeneuve - Please don't tell me he's better than Fisi! Beaten by Alonso and Massa much more than Fisi was. Heidfeld > JV too.
19.Coulthard - 9 seasons in race/title winning cars. Unlucky my @$$.
20.Heidfeld - Amazing to think now he used to be the next best thing (just before Alonso, Kimi and co came along). Has since been underrated but it's his own fault he was so dog slow at Renault in 2011.
21.Sutil - The 2005 gap to Hamilton was fairly representative I think.
22.Davidson - I'm taking his word for it that he's good as he thinks he is!
23.Glock - Podiums in a Toyota and comparison to Trulli more favourable than HHF I think
24.Frentzen - ahead of Irvine by dint of more natural talent.
25.Irvine - just kept getting better and better. Monza 2002 was brilliant. Pushed out of F1 way too early.
26.Kobayashi - overrated. We all like a spectacular driver but why do people think thats' worth about 0.5sec?
27.Sato - There's a difference between being brave and just being a moron.
28.Alguersuari - Poor quali, but excellent racecraft for his age. An old head on young shoulders.
29.Klien - Harsh Red Bull young driver treatment is nothing new...
30.Buemi - Ahead of Panis really? I'm going on his thrashing of Bourdais
31.Panis - Very good driver. Respect.
32.Wurz - Made a huge impact but soon got shown up by Fisi, though his car and treatment were bad.
33.Alesi - overrated much? His talent was much higher than his application. Beaten way too much by UNgreat team-mates.
34.de la Rosa - Why do people say he didn't shine much at Arrows? Where WERE you in 2000? Never FINISHED ahead of Irvine...!
35.Salo - Overrated. More arrogance than talent. What did Toyota see in him? Outperformed IRVINE x2 in Ferrari = Big deal
36.Piquet - The less said the better.
37.Liuzzi - Italy's next world champion just seemed a bit lazy to me. 1 or 2 decent drives a season not good enough. Cost Force India 6th in constructors in 2010.
38.Nakajima - Ahead of Herbert, but was closer to Rosberg than Herbert was to the likes of Irvine.
39.Herbert - I like him, but boy the most overrated driver of all! Consistently miles off teammates. But then what was Monza '94 about. How DID that happen?
40.Pizzonia - Not quite up there with Piquet but...
41.da Matta - Attitude problem meant he wasn't missed.
42.Verstappen - One of my all time favourites. Combative, brilliant, rainmaster, dog slow *sighs*
43.Bernoldi - Underrated. Outqualified Verstappen. Lacked confidence. His talent was better than that.
44.McNish - Moaned a lot I thought. I'm sorry mate, comparing worse to Salo than Diniz did is not a sign of greatness.
45.Zonta - Also knew how to whine like a puppy. Massive reputation (future at McLaren it looked like!) but slow.
46.Bourdais - Worse attitude than da Matta. One of my favourite drivers, but not any more. Your own fault Seb.
47.Wilson - Overrated as better than Webber by British press. I bought it. A good driver though.
48.Pantano - Back in 2000, McLaren, Ferrari and Renault fought over his long-term services. Then Button, Raikkonen, Alonso and the rest came along.
49.Speed - didn't see much of that from him.
50.Burti - Brilliantly lost the British F3 title to Marc Hynes in 1999. Got in at Jaguar as they feared Franchitti would be another Zanardi.
51.Enge - Got better and better in the races during his short stint at Prost in 2001. Yes he did drive in F1!
52.Montagny - So did he! Not very well though. I liked him, but talk about overrated!
53.Firman - another Brit who whined more than did anything special. You would have won Brazil 2003? Get Real!
54.Albers - Johnny I take it back - you are the 2nd most overrated guy here. What is it about drivers with more bad attitude than talent?
55.Bruni - I was a big fan until his quarter baked effort for Minardi, parking healthy cars in attritonal races and all. Minardi deserved better.
56.Diniz - The archetypal underrated driver who was maligned because he brought money. Diniz was one of the most useful drivers in that his purpose was to show up supposedly amazing drivers like Hill and Salo. Eventually got the credit he deserved.
57.Monteiro
58.Karthikeyan - Only in the mega-depth of talent in 2012 does Karthikeyan not look talented. Even then he is a brilliantly professional and safe pair of hands. The most unfairly criticised driver in F1 today. Drives with flair in the wet, as in Brands Hatch in British F3 in 1999. Also in F1.
59.Freisacher
60.Kiesa
61.Gené
62.Badoer - Formula 3000 Champ in 1992. Pace always average +1.6sec over a season and oddly never improved...
63.Winkelhock - I'm just guessing where to put him, ok.
64.Yamamoto - Not as bad as made out to be.
65.Marques
66.Yoong - Lacked confidence. In final 3 races, especially in the race he compared very well with Webber. Has won in A1GP and has talent.
67.Mazzacane - Not that bad actually.
68.Ide - Could have done better. It was a mess really.
69.Baumgartner - No Deletraz. Very good approach and scored a point by being there at the end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark

It's not current racing therefore it's history for the purposes of this forum.

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However, given that it inevitably involves drivers who are currently active in the various series I would suggest otherwise.

As to what might constitute "history" -- as someone asked earlier, it generally takes about 10-15 years to have a reasonable distance from events to begin to form an objective perspective, but it is usually somewhere about 20-25 years for the context, the linkages, the material, the Zeitgeist, and so forth to be adequately both available and understood so as to begin to approach the subject with the proper historical tools -- and "historical thinking" as well. These are not hard and fast parameters, of course, given that "sports history" seems to exist in a parallel universe where last season is ancient history. "Political history" is usually a fellow-traveler with "sports history" given the short attention spans that both possess.

As Gordon Wood correctly reminds us, "Popular memory is not history..." and that would seem to apply in this case.

However, feel free to continue and ignore this contrarian note....

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Originally Posted by Don Capps

However, given that it inevitably involves drivers who are currently active in the various series I would suggest otherwise.

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Would you, therefore, not permit any discussion of the Rolling Stones in an historical context, given their ongoing activity?

So does racing in F1 automatically make you better than those in Champ/Indycar? I would say Rubens would disagree...

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Originally Posted by 00steven

So does racing in F1 automatically make you better than those in Champ/Indycar? I would say Rubens would disagree...

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No; but; F1 is still seen as the pinnacle therefore the best drivers will naturally make their way to F1 much of the time. But the two series are not the same so good in one doesn't necessarily translate to good in the other.

And yes, judging history when still close to it is a tricky one, same as 'Song of the year' often ended up being whatever one was No. 1 at that moment rather than a considered view, however this forum isn't a doctoral thesis so anything that isn't 'current', goes.

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Originally Posted by Mark

No; but; F1 is still seen as the pinnacle therefore the best drivers will naturally make their way to F1 much of the time. But the two series are not the same so good in one doesn't necessarily translate to good in the other.

And yes, judging history when still close to it is a tricky one, same as 'Song of the year' often ended up being whatever one was No. 1 at that moment rather than a considered view, however this forum isn't a doctoral thesis so anything that isn't 'current', goes.

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I agree F1 is the pinnacle, I just think other forms of racing deserve respect. For what it's worth...

1. Alonso
2. Schumacher
3. Vettel
4. Franchitti
5. Bourdais
5. Montoya

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Originally Posted by rjbetty

He got his butt kicked by Kimi, and by Ralf on several occasions. Also he almost certainly would have been beatn by Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel...

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JPM was beat by Ralf because he had the ability all along (and therefore a driver of a high level) as previously Ralf was criticised for being in F1 based on his surname.

Kimi and JPM were near equal.

JPM got it into his head McLaren favoured Kimi eg. 2005 Canadian GP - McLaren should have pitted JPM immediately when the SC came out.

Nor did have a good relationship with Ron - Kimi fell out with Ron and then ironically enough Kimi too fell out with Ferrari and his performance/results suffered.

Re: Vettel - although I regard him highly its hard to put my finger exactly on his greatness. He seems more reliant on car (less so than say Button) nor does he seem to have a drive on par with his first win.

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Originally Posted by Mark

F1 is still seen as the pinnacle therefore the best drivers will naturally make their way to F1 much of the time.

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Sorry, but I cannot help but laugh out loud each and every time I read a statement such this one, regardless of the series being touted.

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Originally Posted by wedge

JPM got it into his head McLaren favoured Kimi eg. 2005 Canadian GP - McLaren should have pitted JPM immediately when the SC came out.

Nor did have a good relationship with Ron - Kimi fell out with Ron and then ironically enough Kimi too fell out with Ferrari and his performance/results suffered.

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In that case, the same applies to Fisichella at Renault with Flav, but no-one seems to allow him that excuse.