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so your both saying its ok that Cup drivers can basically wreck a guy thats running for a championship to score a meaningless win. If the cup drivers wanna race fine then. but they should be under zero tolerance if they are involved in a wreck with a actual nationwide driver running for a championship. Logano should've been penalized for wrecking the leader on the restart, bump drafting does not belong at Darlington
I disagree, much like the CoT on the Cup side, the teams of Roush, RCR, JGR, Penske all have the money that the other teams just dont have, add to that basically they all run their Cup drivers, theres not much incentive for these small budget teams to compete with their drivers, I remember when the Busch series was on a off-track from the Winston Cup series, the races were so much better because the Cup drivers wouldnt go to Nazareth, Pikes Peak, or Milwaukee, and the drivers knew the field was leveled nowQuote:
Originally Posted by beachbum
No. What we're saying is that the Nationwide Series would be dead (or much diminshed) if it weren't for the Sprint Cup drivers and teams. We'll let you worry over the wreck.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
When was the last time you personally attended a Nationwide race? And did you ever attend a Busch Series race back in the day when it was populated mostly with Late Model Sportsman teams?
no I did not, but I did watch the races on TV, because a.) the nascar I used to love, I didnt have the money or a car to go to a race because I was under 16. by the time I was older, the novelty of Nascar, going to a ALMS race is by far alot more fan friendly and alot more exciting than going to oval races. the only stock car race I have watched was an ARCA race at Chicagoland Speedway and it was a hellva race, followed by an IRL race.
The Truck series seems to do pretty good without Cup drivers or teams ;) yeah attendance is down, but the Nationwide series would live on also, the problem is that the sponsors don't want an inexperienced driver. remember the BS that Aric Almirola received driving for Joe Gibbs that he was in the top 5 at Milwaukee and was forced to get out of the car to put Hamlin in. that goes to show you the state of the Nationwide series, the Cup series drivers need to be backed-off or become owners and give back to the series. I'd rather see up-and-coming drivers in the Nationwide Series than a bunch of hacks stealing time for drivers, you dont see any other professional sports league player go back to AAA to go pad stats
From what you were saying, I didn't think you had. Let someone who has been attending Nationwide/Busch series races since the 70's shed a little light for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
The Late Model Sportsman ranks that used to support this series are not what they used to be. There are not many short track champions/aces/heros left to fill out the ranks like there were in the old days. I hadn't been to a Nationwide race for several years when I went to Richmond a couple of weeks ago. It was pretty shocking. About a quarter of the field were start-and-parks; about a dozen or so with either pocket-change sponsors or were ride-buys; a few up-and-comers; and about a half-dozen cup drivers. It was the sorriest field I can ever remember seeing. You cut out the cup drivers and team, there won't be much left.
If you don't like, don't watch. I hate restrictor plate racing and I leave the TV off when those races are on.
I have to go with Lee Roy on this one. And to make my point, I only need to point to the results from qualifying of this last weekends race at Darlington.
Nationwide Series:
The pole, set by Ricky Stenhouse, was 28.336 seconds @ 173.546mph. The slowest car in the field, the 70, ran a 32.319 seconds @ 152.158mph. That's a spread of 3.983 seconds, and 21.388 mph. To make it even more interesting, if the 107% rule from F1 was in effect here, then the 107% lap would have been 30.320 seconds @ 162.193mph. No fewer than 7 cars would have been sent home (well ok, 6, because the 88 would have been able to demonstrate Force Majuer (i guess that's how it's spelled) because he wrecked coming off of 4 and was on a pace as fast or faster than his teammate's (Danica) 29.185 seconds when he wrecked and had been well within 107pct in practice himself).
Cup Series:
The pole was set by Greg Biffle with a lap of 27.281 seconds @ 180.257 mph so the 107% lap would have been a 29.191 seconds @ 168.465. The absolute dog of the field, the 32 ran a 28.307 seconds @ 173.724 mph, which made the spread but 1.026 seconds and 6.534 mph. That lap was well within the 107 pct lap by 0.877 seconds and 5.259 mph-and this driver still went HOME......keep in mind too that there were at least 4 start and park efforts in this race, and they STILL all were well inside 107%.
The numbers for Richmond were similiar, with the Natwide pole (Harvick) being a 21.665 seconds @ 124.625 mph, and the dog (75) being a 24.503 seconds @ 110.191mph, a spread of 2.838 seconds and 14.434 mph (ON A .75 MILE TRACK!!!!!) The 107pct lap was a 23.182 seconds @ 116.472 mph...4 cars that raced would have gone HOME....
In the Cup race, Mark Martin sat on the pole with a 21.040 seconds @ 128.327 mph. The 107 pct lap was 22.513 seconds @ 119.932 mph. The DOG (32 again) ran a 21.705 seconds @ 124.395 mph.....a spread of just 0.665 seconds and 3.932 mph. (1 minor correction, the 2 "GO Homers" were even slower than this I was just keeping track the cars that made the field, but even still, the slowest (49) ran a 22.030 seconds @ 121.814, still with in 107pct.)
What this shows is the absolute lack of depth in the Nationwide Series versus the Cup Series. I know that when none of the big names are in a Nationwide race I am not so keen on watching the resulting wreckfest and bone head moves because I have no one to follow. This year is a little different for me than other years because at least I have Austin Dillon to pull for, as opposed to other years when it was "if Harv a'int racin' I'm not watchin' ". There is no wonder why more than half the cars in the field have blank hoods in the series, and if teh cup drivers stayed away completely I believe the Nationwide series would disappear. The Trucks are a different matter all together. They are sufficently different enough as race vehicles to really be its own form of racing, and it has its own group of rabid fans, as well as a bunch of drivers that have made that series their home. I believe the trucks can (and for the most part have) been able to stand on its own without cup involvement.
so you both approve that its ok for Cup drivers to wreck Nationwide only drivers with under 5 laps to go on a restart without any penalty, as they go score a meaningless win for themselves while the guy going for a championship gets screwed by a guy that has no more business in the series.
like I have said before but gets often put in the dark, its a double edge sword. the lower teams dont have the money the cup owners have, which is the reason they are in the Nationwide series, now throw in the Cup drivers as well and it makes them look even worse. The Cup drivers have been ruining the series, no question about it. what I said earlier was the fact that if cup drivers wanna race, fine, but they should be under zero tolerance when it comes to wrecking the drivers actually competing in the Nationwide championship. Sadler got screwed, Darlington is not Talladega, I would be saying the same thing for Steinhouse or Bayne, or even Patrick in this case. the Cup drivers have nothing to prove in the Nationwide series anymore, other then padding stats, let some new names into the series.
I understand what you're saying about the Nationwide Owners not having the money of the Cup owners. In our opinion, that is greatly overshadowed by the our belief that the Nationwide Series would cease to exist if it weren't for the Cup owners and Cup drivers participation . . . . . and that's the bottom line.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Unlike drivers in other types of racing, cup drivers like to race. I don't think they're doing it for any other reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
And another thing, why the crocodile tears for Sadler, isn't he a "Cup driver"???
Look Harv, it was an accident, OK? They tried to do the same thing that they did on the previous restart (which, I might add, worked like a charm that time) and it just didn't come out too good on the second attempt. The jury is still out as to whether the cause was the ill advised 2 tire stop or did Sadler just run out of talent (I like Sadler, but there is a reason why he isn't in the Cup series anymore).
You of all people should know that I am not just sticking up for Logano to just to do it. The 2 car, although an RCR entry now, is still (pretty much in name only) owned by Kevin and Delana Harvick. Delana is still the "listed" owner for the car for owners points purposes. SO from a fans standpoint I should be lighting Logano's butt on fire for wrecking OUR car (isn't it funny how those of us that don't have a dime tied up in the car itself still call it ours just because or favorite driver drives it or owner owns it?) But I just can't, not when its an obvious accident, or else I would lose all credibilty when I would argue that a wreck wasn't my driver's fault.
Nascar isn't in the business of penalizing people for accidents (thank God for THAT, I watched 2 B.S. penalties handed out this weekend alone in other series, and one in the Continental Tire race at Homestead in a driving rain storm for just a slight nick a few weeks back). Racing in close quarters means that cars are going to come together at some point. Its just the nature of the beast. The only thing penalties for "avoidable contact" do is disuade drivers from actually racing. Better to follow in line and not attempt to overtake than to risk a penalty that cost you track position. Oh, and how I hate how that term is thrown around by imbeciles sitting in a tower full of monitors who probably have never driven anything faster than a street car in their life.
Speaking of things I am tired of. I am growing extremely weary of the comparison between racing and stick-and-ball TEAM sports. Golf and Tennis, maybe (and even they are a huge stretch).
There is absolutely ZERO comparison between the Nationwide Series and Triple A Baseball, or the CBA, or the IHL, or NCAA Football. None.
Racers race. Its what they do, and the real racers out there want to do it as much as they can, time permitting. Sprint Cup racing is the pinnacle of racing in the United States, and yes, a Cup race is a long race. BUT ITS ONLY ONCE A WEEK FOR A FEW HOURS. Guys like Kenny Schrader race 100+ times a year at all different types of tracks and in all different types of cars (I got a kick out him of wheeling that Mini around Road America last year). Yeah, I know he's not really Cup racing anymore, but he was doing things like that even when he was full time in the Cup Series. Harvick, Shrub, Cuz, Kes-guys like that, they want to race 60-70 times a year. Yes, they happen to be blessed with the best equipment out there when they go racing in other series but that'a a side effect of having a ton of talent. USUALLY the money and equipment follow the talent (not always, at least not anymore, when the driver of a certain bright green car gets added to the conversation-but that's a different topic for a different thread). Hell Tony Stewart bough an entire race track to go play on (and invite his Cup buddies to tear up some dirt cars once a year). Racer's will race, whether it be in a Nationwide car at Daytona, or a go cart in the back yard, and for alot less money than they get paid doing their day job. They just want the trophy. Nascar could pass a rule that a cup driver wouldn't get paid one red cent for competing in a Nationwide race and alot of them would still do it-just to get to that checkered flag first.
A pitcher for the Chicago Cubs gains nothing by going and playing for the Iowa Triple A farm club but a sore butt from the long bus rides between towns. A race driver gets his name in the paper and a picture of him holding the trophy every week when he wins. Its not about stats for them, the only "stat" that matters is the number of trophies in the trophy case. You dont get anything for a win in a baseball game, except a larger number in the "W" column. If a team wins enough games they get the chance to play in an elimination style playoff for the chance to play for the only trophy given out for the year. And that trophy is shared by all 15, 25, or 53 players on a squad-they don't get to take it home with them. So, unless its a rehab situation in baseball, there really is no REASON to go back and play in the minors. THAT'S why you don't see NBA, NHL or NFL players doing it, there is nothing to gain.
Sadler is no longer a "cup" driver.
also Cup owners have always been in the Busch/Nationwide series. mostly everyone that moved onto the Cup series was in the lower-tiered series, guys like Biffle, Edwards were groomed from Roush: Kahne from Yates: Earnhardt Jr., Harvick from RCR: Newman from Penske, Kyle Busch from Hendrick and the list goes on and on, these guys were all brought up through the ladder from CUP owners!!! Also how about the Truck Series as a reference, dont they still exist with little to no Cup Owners and Drivers ;)
you guys seem oblivious just like the Danica Fanatics saying that Indy Car was dead once she was gone, guess what, they are running it seems alot better now, people still show up to the races, if the Cup Owners actually gave unknown drivers a chance for a go, hey maybe we'll see another Brad K. then, cause when Jr signed him, no one really had a clue who he was and now look at him
what I'm trying to say is it seems you guys are happy that nothing gets done by the fact that Cup drivers get away with wrecking a driver going for a championship while they are only padding stats. the fact when the leader on the restart gets spun out and wrecked about 100 feet past the s/f line, you saying all the blame is on Sadler. thats like a person getting rear-ended when the light turns green and the person from behind says its all your fault because you didnt accelerate fast enough.
unlike Nascar, most all racing series hold drivers accountable for avoidable contact like that and would've received a stop-and-go. and I'm more or less surprised by you Lee Roy because I thought you were all against contact in racing, at least from the Bristol thread, you seem quite the opposite here.