2011 Grammy Awards: When Did Mediocrity and Banality Become Something to Strive For?

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Originally Posted by ICWS

But the point I was making is that a lot of these musicians seem to be recycling the same type of music other people have done a couple years before over and over again, yet they somehow get credited for being "original, artistic, deep, meaningful, brilliant, etc.". And these musicians get awarded as well by the self-proclaimed experts of music. I pretty much realize that the Grammy Awards, and other award shows like that, is simply a manufactured celebration of the industry itself and it allows those involved in the industry to pat themselves on the back for making millions of dollars each year they do the awards show.
Art is certainly subjective, as you pointed out. But to me there is a rather obvious distinction between those who make art for the purpose of appealing to their own and potentially other people's emotions, senses, and intellect, and those who make art for the purpose of commerce and commercialism. In the case of music, some musicians have the ability to include both purposes when making their music, but most musicians tend to fall into one or the other purposes. I really do think the Grammy Awards, 98% of the time, put the spotlight those who make music for the primary purpose of making lots of money. And to me, that's where those musicians' art becomes meaningless, shallow, mediocre, banal, and goes against what art was originally meant to function as.

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You certainly make some very astute observations.

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a lot of these musicians seem to be recycling the same type of music other people have done a couple years before over and over again, yet they somehow get credited for being "original, artistic, deep, meaningful, brilliant, etc.". ].

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This has been going on since the advent of Rock genre, somthing that I am almost old enough to remember. The performers should get very little credit for this, and none for creative originality.
But there are a few notable exceptions that changed the song substancially enough to warrant some merit "Summertime", composed by George Gershwin For "Porgy and Bess" in 1933, and recorded numorous times by high profile stars received it's highest acclaim in the Rock/R&B Era in 1966 by Billy Stewart.( a version that I really enjoy) "Bobbi McGee" is a Kris Kristopherson composition and recording, as is Joni Mitchell's "Woodstock" And Jackson Browne's "Take it Easy" ( although Glen Frey is listed as a co-writer because he added the lyrics about Winslow Arizona) and "Rock me on the water" Linda Ronstadt received a lot of acclaim for her version
I could list more but I think these will get my point across.

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it allows those involved in the industry to pat themselves on the back for making millions of dollars each year they do the awards show

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Sucks doesn't it?

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But to me there is a rather obvious distinction between those who make art for the purpose of appealing to their own and potentially other people's emotions, senses, and intellect, and those who make art for the purpose of commerce and commercialism. In the case of music

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It really always has been that way. I remember an interview I saw with Joni Mitchell (who by all accounts was a very talented muscian, also brilliant, original and creative) said that "Raised on Robbery" was written as a direct response to her Record Co. insisting she had a song that was near or at the top of the charts. That one was not that obvious because she was so original, and it was true to her style somewhat

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most musicians tend to fall into one or the other purposes. I really do think the Grammy Awards, 98% of the time, put the spotlight those who make music for the primary purpose of making lots of money. And to me, that's where those musicians' art becomes meaningless, shallow, mediocre, banal, and goes against what art was originally meant to function as.

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Amen Brother! They are a complete waste of time IMHO

Everybody has music out there now including my own daughter. It's all original but she isn't that talented and I was very glad that she got her BS in "Acoustics and Sound Production", and is currently employed as a Recording Engineer.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

I think that these are simply the most popular stars. The alternative is to be like the Academy Awards, which usually are given to movies which are completely unknown to the general viewer.

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Good point about the Academy Awards. The most recent ones validate what you said; with the best example of The Hurt Locker winning Best Picture over the far more commercially successful Avatar. I think that's a good thing, personally, because that can increase the viewership of a film like The Hurt Locker and allows those viewers to open themselves up more to films that display different plots, points of view, emotions, etc. than they are accustomed to with more commercial films.

It would be great if the Grammy Awards and other music award shows could do the same thing, but clearly they aren't and probably won't unless the consumers of music outright tell them so. But that is also very unlikely because it seems most American consumers of music only listen to music they are told to listen to via contemporary music channels (both radio and T.V.), so they think that's the only music out there and by not liking it, there must be something wrong with them.

I'm glad that on this forum that people are open and unashamed of liking the music they like to listen to, on the "Currently Listening To..." board. A lot of people my age (early-20s) who hang out with me or attend college tend to be the typical American consumer of music I talked about, and some of them think I'm weird for liking people like Tool, Aphex Twin, Butthole Surfers, etc. because they've never heard it on the mainstream music radio/T.V. channels. But I feel that these people have some secret musical tastes of their own that are not as commercial as other music, but they keep it to themselves and not openly admit they like their secret preferences so they don't get looked at as being weird by the herd.

I never take any award shows seriously, I know whats good and whats total crap, I dont need an expert telling me this because quite frankly, everyone has a different opinion to music and movies.


award shows are so watered down now, I mean there are about 5 Country music award shows, 15 music awards, 5 movie awards, I mean what is this, the everyone gets a trophy thing we were all taught when we were 5, give me a break

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Originally Posted by harvick#1

I never take any award shows seriously, I know whats good and whats total crap, I dont need an expert telling me this because quite frankly, everyone has a different opinion to music and movies.


award shows are so watered down now, I mean there are about 5 Country music award shows, 15 music awards, 5 movie awards, I mean what is this, the everyone gets a trophy thing we were all taught when we were 5, give me a break

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Yeah, I didn't think about that until you posted what you said. It does seem these shows are created to make these all of these people feel like they're winners in some regard.

And even though you're right in not needing an awards show to help you decide whether if someone's music is good or not, the fact is that Grammy Awards get a significant T.V. audience. Last year's broadcast got a 9.8 Nielsen net rating, and an average audience of 25.8 million. This seems to mean, to me at least, that at least 25 million people needed to have an awards show to help them realize who's music is good and who's music isn't.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm a rather pessimestic person in regards to how people from the ages of 18-35 years old know about music as a whole (including both commercial music and non-commercial music) and what is good music versus mediocre music. As you could probably tell, I take music very seriously, and I'm upset with the current state of music at the mass level. Maybe that's because I play music as a hobby myself (without recording it), and have developed a taste in music that for the most part isn't concurrent with popular music today.

In my opinion, one of the best ways to determine whether certain music is good or not is if it encourages/inspires the common listener to make music themselves. I think Ralph Waldo Emerson said something like that in regards to art in general. I, and a few other people I know who play music, have been inspired by people like Opeth, Mesuggah, Tool, System of a Down, Rage Against the Machine, King Crimson, Dream Theater, Metallica, Slayer, Elton John, David Bowie, Nine Inch Nails, Ministry, Primus, Jaco Pastorius, Aphex Twin, Norah Jones, Butthole Surfers, Faith No More, Oasis, Midnight Oil, Offspring, Wu-Tang Clan, Public Enemy, A Tribe Called Quest, Victor Wooten, Massive Attack, Alice In Chains, Bad Religion, Beethoven, Kronos Quartet, Mozart, J.S. Bach, etc. So in our opinions, those people make good, if not great, music since we were inspired to create music of our own and examine the meaning of lyrics with the influence of those people.

From what I know, I don't see any common listeners of Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga, Lil Wayne, Lady Antebellum, Katy Perry, Alicia Keys, Drake, Rihanna, Chris Brown, etc. being inspired to make music themselves. Those guys' and gals' music actually seems to encourage listeners to not make music themselves and instead simply listen/sing along in a car on the way to work and/or listen and dance in a club to those guys' and gals' music.

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Originally Posted by ICWS

As you could probably tell, I take music very seriously, and I'm upset with the current state of music at the mass level. Maybe that's because I play music as a hobby myself (without recording it), and have developed a taste in music that for the most part isn't concurrent with popular music today.

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So, basically you're just like everyone else, if you don't like particular type music or artist, it's crap. ;)

There was a funny comment in a Finnish humor site few years ago about comparing music.

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“Toisaalta esimerkiksi 2 Unlimitedin No Limitsin vertaaminen johonkin Bachin fuugaan on tosi epäreilua, koska Bach ei osannut räpätä ja biisistä puuttuu kertosäe”

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which roughly translates as follows:
On the other hand comparing No Limit by 2unlimited to something like Bach's Fugue is really unfair because Bach could't rap and the song lacks chorus.

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Originally Posted by ICWS

From what I know, I don't see any common listeners of Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga, Lil Wayne, Lady Antebellum, Katy Perry, Alicia Keys, Drake, Rihanna, Chris Brown, etc. being inspired to make music themselves.

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When you've got so many listeners, it's easier for you to make such sweeping statements. I feel you've seen listeners who perhaps are a bit apathetic, consumerist towards their listening to these artists and assume they represent all listeners. What you don't seem to have considered is that you just may not have met the others. If anything I would assume that you're a bit miffed that not more people listen to the music that you love.

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Originally Posted by ICWS

Those guys' and gals' music actually seems to encourage listeners to not make music themselves and instead simply listen/sing along in a car on the way to work and/or listen and dance in a club to those guys' and gals' music.

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Where on earth you've got this from is anybody's guess. If you're going to make these statements, at least try to back them up! It would be a bit like me smearing all those who listen to Tool as lazy, apathetic stoners just because I know a few people who are like that.

You'll note that I'm not a big listener to Gaga et al. But I'm defending their music because when I do listen to it or see it performed I enjoy it. And that's what music is about.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

So, basically you're just like everyone else, if you don't like particular type music or artist, it's crap. ;)

There was a funny comment in a Finnish humor site few years ago about comparing music.
which roughly translates as follows:
On the other hand comparing No Limit by 2unlimited to something like Bach's Fugue is really unfair because Bach could't rap and the song lacks chorus.

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Yes, I'm indeed like everyone else. But I said in my posts that these things I was saying were my opinion, meaning that there existed a high level of subjectivity in what I said. I'm not saying anything of these things are the truth and nothing but the truth, but based off personal experience, I felt that I could validate my opinions to make good points about what I said.

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Originally Posted by AndySpeed

When you've got so many listeners, it's easier for you to make such sweeping statements. I feel you've seen listeners who perhaps are a bit apathetic, consumerist towards their listening to these artists and assume they represent all listeners. What you don't seem to have considered is that you just may not have met the others. If anything I would assume that you're a bit miffed that not more people listen to the music that you love.



Where on earth you've got this from is anybody's guess. If you're going to make these statements, at least try to back them up! It would be a bit like me smearing all those who listen to Tool as lazy, apathetic stoners just because I know a few people who are like that.

You'll note that I'm not a big listener to Gaga et al. But I'm defending their music because when I do listen to it or see it performed I enjoy it. And that's what music is about.

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Personal experience is where I get my opinions from. I've hung out with different kinds of people from in my life: classmates, teammates, co-workers, family, neighbors, etc. And I know what most of their musical tastes are. And I know how they interpret the music they listen to and whether it motivates them to take up playing music themselves as a hobby.

I play bass guitar and have done jam sessions with some of these people; a few of them have degrees in music. And we all agree 99% of the time of what music is meaningful, inspiring, and creative. The people I play with come from a variety of backgrounds. A few are from the south, some grew up in poor neighborhoods, we come from different race and ethnicities, etc. Yet we all know a lot about the extreme variety of music available, and we know that plenty of it is not always played on the radio/music video channels.

And then there are those people I've met who listen to those Grammy musicians I listed. They only listen to music that is played on the mainstream radio stations that they have on when they are driving, and download that music on to their MP3s. They seem to lack a knowledge of the various genres of music that don't necessarily get played on the radio, and they don't seem to know much about music older than their generation: one of them couldn't tell the difference between The Who and Led Zeppelin, for example. They don't play instruments except for the Guitar Hero guitar or the the DJ Hero turntable. Also, most of them haven't read the lyrics of the people they listen to, so they're unaware of the depth or lack thereof of those musicians' lyrical content, which forms the backbone of pop music.

Once again, all my opinions on this thread are based off personal experience. I know many of you agree or disagree with what I said. But just remember that whatever I type in this thread is subjective, and I'm not trying to share my opinions as if they are the absolute truth.

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Originally Posted by ICWS

Once again, all my opinions on this thread are based off personal experience. I know many of you agree or disagree with what I said. But just remember that whatever I type in this thread is subjected, and I'm not trying to share my opinions as if they are the absolute truth.

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Let me know how that works out for you! :rolleyes: ;)

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Originally Posted by AndySpeed

Where on earth you've got this from is anybody's guess. If you're going to make these statements, at least try to back them up! It would be a bit like me smearing all those who listen to Tool as lazy, apathetic stoners just because I know a few people who are like that.

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Actually, I know some Tool fans from the high school I went that seemed to be apathetic and lazy stoners :D . I wouldn't be suprised if here are a lot of Rage Against the Machine fans that are that way as well, except they would have shirts/posters that have Che Guevara, Malcolm X, etc. on them and possibly have Noam Chomsky books in their bedrooms.