For those who think Bush is the problem...read.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Well, I will just say if Bush did nothing about Mugabe, neither has Obama.

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And neither has anybody, but that's not the point I'm making, which is about the deeply selective nature of the stance of Bush (and Blair, for that matter) in relation to unpleasant regimes. I cannot think of any defence that can be mounted of this.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Obama has a foreign policy of mainly confusing and contradicting stances. He is for Israel, then he ticks off its president and snubs him publically.

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What is wrong with that stance? There are many of us who, unlike some, would defend the right of Israel to exist but criticise its policies. I am pleased to see Obama reflecting this widespread view. Supporting the continued existence of Israel in the face of threats does not mean that one should offer unconditional backing to its leadership on every issue. Unfortunately, Israel has never appreciated this and takes every criticism as a serious affront.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I mean...Dubya has his faults, but he spoke out against places like Syria and Myanmar oppressing their people. He also didn't tolerate much with the North Koreans.

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To what end? And he was hardly a vehement human rights campaigner before he took office.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Well we can put Iraq to bed.

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Until all foreign forces are out of Iraq and the country is genuinely a peaceful, stable place once more, we can't put it to bed. I'm afraid the (North) American right, and Blair and his acolytes, won't get people to just 'move on' from the issue of Iraq just by saying that they should.

Ben, what Obama is doing with Nethanyu is personal in how he attacks him.

Mark my words, Obama is a very thin skinned idealogue and he isn't above getting personal in showing his displeasure. Apparently he had Benjamin cooling his heels in the Oval Office while he had dinner with his kids. Not sure on how this diplo thing is supposed to work, but I do believe that sort of message is just childish.

AS for Bush's lack of campaigning about human rights before he was elected, maybe he saw the light once he was in the Oval office? Cant criticize the man for being late to the party if he arrives and recognizes the wrongs being done and uses his office to add pressure. My point is, and always was, that he isn't the dope he has been portrayed at, and some of the things he has done in the 3rd world have been ignored by the opponents. The US spent WAY more on foreign aid in Africa on anti-AIDS prevention and treatments than Clinton did, and it was Bono who pointed THAT out, hardly a Bush acolyte.

As for the Americans getting out of Iraq, I suspect Obama would have had them out yesterday if the country would stand on its own. Most Americans want their troops out of there, both left and right. However, this goes under the category of "you broke it, you bought it"....and the US and the UK have a moral duty to at least leave the nation on some sort of footing of self sufficiency. This being the Arab world, that usually means a dictator imposing peace. Since that wont do....the troops stay while the Iraqi's figure out this democracy thing and learn to work with it, instead of blowing each other up with large car bombs and the like.

Like I said, there is a very good argument to be made for not having gone to Iraq in the first place, I get that, but it is water under the bridge now...

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Lol, by who was us respected during bush, and what make you think that way?

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Ask our enemies.....and our "friends."
you see, I don't care about the general public of other nations....I care about the Governments. They respected Bush. Look at Libya. They saw what Bush was doing and cleaned up there act quick.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Ben, what Obama is doing with Nethanyu is personal in how he attacks him.

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I have seen nothing to object to in this, and I am not someone who is automatically impressed by Obama. It is about time Israel was shown that its 'you're either with us or against us' attitude, not one to have served its interests well, cannot be tolerated.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Like I said, there is a very good argument to be made for not having gone to Iraq in the first place, I get that, but it is water under the bridge now...

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No it isn't! There are still people dying there in an armed conflict that would not have occurred had those who knew it was an awful policy to pursue been listened to. This is what we hear ad nauseam from the likes of Blair whose backing was unconditional: 'Let's move on'. No, we won't, thank you very much. Then there's the view of people such as David Cameron who, for some reason, were naive and misguided enough to support the war in the first place and have now realised the error of their ways but are unwilling to admit their mistake: 'If I'd have known then what I know now about how Iraq will turn out...' Neither is that good enough.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Until all foreign forces are out of Iraq and the country is genuinely a peaceful, stable place once more,

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Once more?

I guess genocide and political repression is peaceful for you. Not Surprising seeing what flag you wave.

The Republic of Iraq is currently seeing it's greatest moment of peace and stability since it's inception in 1958. The only destabilization occurring is from outside interference. Better known as Iran.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Ask our enemies.....and our "friends."
you see, I don't care about the general public of other nations....I care about the Governments. They respected Bush. Look at Libya. They saw what Bush was doing and cleaned up there act quick.

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That is revisionist history. Libya was already cleaning up its act some time before Bush came along. Diplomatic relations with many nations had already been restored and trading links set up. Don't forget, it announced in 1998 that it would be giving up the alleged Lockerbie suspect. It was probably not the right man, but the very action of doing so was a deeply symbolic move.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

I guess genocide and political repression is peaceful for you. Not Surprising seeing what flag you wave.

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The flag under my name is the modern flag of post-war Germany. Your point being...?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

I could care less if other countries like us.

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Neither do Syrians, Iranians and North-Koreans care if other countries like them, at least their leaders don't. You're just like them.

You're just like some Russian youths I saw interviewed on TV. They said they don't care if other countries like Russia, they prefer them to respect and fear Russia.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

I want them to respect us. The US was respected much more under Bush than it is now.

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:laugh: Respect? I used to like and respect the US before Bush. Under Bush I used every opportunity to crack a joke about the US, ridicule it and criticize it.