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Interesting stuff. This comes at the tail end of negotiations between BMW and Mercedes falling through to share common components and possibly eventually platforms. There are rumours that BMW is negotiating with PSA and/or Honda for a similar component sharing deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Anything that increases savings for the smaller makers is good IMO, at the moment VW and Toyota are leaving them all for dead due to their sheer size.
:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
Personally I feel that VW are not going to continue on like this in the long term. I personally don't see how you can have Bugatti, VW, Skoda, Seat, Audi, Porsche and Lamborghini under one roof and maintain each brand as something different and interesting. I also feel that Volkswagen Group cars are chronically overrated too.
Sparky, look at my flag. Not an American, and I stand by what I said. The Renault Fuego was one of the WORST cars ever built by statistical proof in the amount of cars sold, the amount of cars with issues and how many were on the road not 4 years later. A buddy of mine fell in love with the sexy shape, the turbo 4, and he sold it for scrap in less than 3 years after 2 blown motors. He knew of two other Fuego owners with similar stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
Renault when they were last in North American had the Fuego, Encore, and the Renault 5. They all sucked....statistically, not just my opinion. Whereas I can find Honda's and Toyota's of that vintage on the road around here still, and I know there is lots of domestic iron on the road from the same era that I will see time to time. Haven't seen a Renault in anything but pictures in about 15 years.
MB has hitched their wagon to Nissan AND Renault. I hope for MB's sake, the Nissan quality is infused into the corporate DNA....and NOT Renault.
I would welcome Renault AND Fiat back with open arms, since I love European styling, but they cant build stuff that wont hold up.
The Renault Encore was built by AMC at Kenosha, Wisconsin, United States.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
The Renault 5 for North America was built in Mariara, Venezuela.
The Fuego for North America was built under licence by AMC by Renault Argentina.
The bottom line is that the American market (which is what gets foisted on Canadians) demands cheaper quality of cars than Europe. I have yet to see even a single example where an American domestic market car is better than its European equivalent.
Compare the Chevy Cobalt with the Opel Astra, the two versions of the Ford Focus, the Chevy Malibu vs the Opel Vectra, the Dodge Caliber (shudder)... find me one. Heck even the Toyota Camry and Prius built for the North American market exhibit untold levels of shonkiness not found elsewhere in the world.
The problem is Government regs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
The US has tougher emission and safety standards.
As for Renault. it doesn't matter where it was made. They were designed and engineered by Renault. They provided parts and were in charge of quality control.
They make BMWs in the USA and I defy you to tell the difference in quality between US and Euro built Bimmers.
We had a Renault for 4 years as the family car; it certainly did have some faults on it but they were always repaired (even when the car was out of warranty) free of charge and with minimal fuss. It was certainly no less reliable than our current Seat from the VW umbrella which has had a number of faults in the 3 years we've had it.
Would I have another? Yes.
I am going to first off say that Renault sent us those cars with questionable build quality ( I wont include the Encore as a true Renault) and didn't give us the French versions, but they controlled the factories and designed the cars. The Fuego's that rusted in 4 years were not because they were built wrong, but because the engineers who designed them, and the management team that sent them here sent them here with no rust protection against road salt. Since winter and road salt go together like fish and chips in the US and Canada, this was STUPID. So when I say Renault better up their game, it is for this reason. It has nothing to do with the build quality, although that too is suspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
As for this assertions North Americans cannot build cars, may I point out Honda's are shipped BACK to Japan from the US. The men and women on the factory floors over here are not dumber or less committed to their jobs than the guys at Dagenham (Ford) or in Germany with Opel. What is more the fallacy of the supposed lesser engineering of US designed cars falls apart when you realize the numbers of 12 to 16 year old cars I see on the road and there are a lot of them that are domestics. Lets face the reality, most of the cars on the road today, whether it be in Europe, Japan, North America or Australia are built by the same technologies, are often world platforms or are designed with a lot of common parts. Cars in North America for the most part deal with a harsher climate than Western Europe, and yet they last here just as long as any in Europe.
The whole thing is, this is a subjective thing. People in Europe think European cars are superior to the oversized gas guzzling badly built cars of North America, and over here, people think Euro cars for the common man at tin cans that would crush like grapes with teeny motors and suspect build quality.
The truth is neither. Personally, I don't think cars are better or worse built in Britain or Canada, it all comes down to design, and with the nature of most multinational car makers now, that is an international thing too.
The only valid point I think Europeans can make is the cars over here are not as good handling wise and don't have the refinement in the suspension and have a garish styling. I agree to a point, they don't. They also don't have to carry around the extra safety beams and impact structures, and they also are designed to cater to a populace that sits at 65mph on long straight roads. Then do it for 4 days on end to cross the continent. It is a different mindset in the driving enviroment here, and it is harsh one come winter, and our cars reflect it.
Nowadays, I would have to say regardless of where a car is built, it comes down to the car maker being on their game or not. I drove a new Ford Fusion 2 weeks ago when my father's van needed work and I was driving my parents and another couple into Toronto for the day. 5 of us fit in there pretty comfortably, the car returned good gas mileage, its FOUR Cylinder was smooth and gave decent power. It was supple on the bumps, cornered flat, had excellent interior finishes and was styled very nicely. Designed, built and engineered in Dearborn. 4 Years after the First Fusions hit the street, they still are getting good ratings in the reliability survey's. I don't know of anyone in Europe would knock this car for what it was.....so spare me this fiction Americans cannot do it. They can do it, they just have gotten the wrong idea I think of what people want. The reality is, European makes who still sell here (VW, MB, BMW, Porsche, Opel Astras) are judged by the consumers here for reliablity and are tracked and the Euro built cars don't have any statistical leap in reliability or customer satisfaction. The Japanese in Honda and Toyota have led the way, with American and Canadian built models....
I don't think that it's a case that American car makers can't build better cars, it's that they won't do it, because that would be an erosion of profit margins, and that there is the point of business, to make profits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Cars are produced for various markets around the world according to different price points. My assertation is that the American market demands cheaper cars than the rest of the world, and as such it gets them.
Of course they don't. I didn't say this. I said that cars produced for the American market are cheaper in terms of build quality because that's what the market demands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
It's interesting that you mention VW, MB, BMW etc. because this will prove my point.
The BMW 3-Series is pretty well much a standard car in most markets. I looked at four of them - The UK, Germany, Australia and the US. Prices are thus:
AU - BMW 320i - $57,500.00 - USD 53,522.03 - Built in Rosslyn, South Africa
DE - BMW 320i - €30,900.00 - USD 42,141.15 - Built in Leipzig and Munich
UK - BMW 320i - £25,175.00 - USD 38,848.62 - Built in Leipzig and Munich
US - BMW 328i - $33,500.00 - USD 33,150.00 - Built in Kaliningrad and Shenyang, China
Not only is the 3-Series for the US market cheaper, but it has a bigger engine as well. Now apart from the fact that American petrol is 87RON as opposed to Australia's 91RON and Europe's 95RON, invariably if you reduce the price, in order to achieve that price point, the quality of the materials going into it are going to be cheaper to begin with, or you find a cheaper labour force, which explains why so many cars are built in Mexico.
It follows that a BMW produced for America is going to built more cheaply than their European counterparts, simply for the reason that BMW has to chase a lower price point than in Europe.
Again, nothing to with a car maker "being on their game". Even cars coming out of the same factory can built to different price points. The Holden Commodore is a classic example of this. When badged as an HSV, the quality of plastics going into it are of better quality than if it is badged as a Holden. Also, the Commodores which were produced for export as either the Pontiac G8 in the USA or the Chevrolet Lumina in the Middle East, are worse quality than the Holden Commodore in Australia, and yet they all come out of the same factory in Elizabeth, South Australia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I have not and did not say that Americans can not build cars. I did say that cars produced for America are of cheaper build quality and this goes for all auto manufacturers.
Do the Chinese workers make the wage that the German makers do? You also grossly fail at looking at profits in a specific sector, and how a lower profit margin in a much bigger market still amounts to more profit. Compare your local burger joint to McDonalds and you have a great example. If you compare the Australian market to the US you will quickly see how profit margins won't drive the final price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
The US doesn't use the RON octane rating method, it uses RON+MON/2, which will produce a lower number. It's also available up to 92 to 94 octane, depending on the region you live in. US 94 would be probably closer to 97/98 in RON rating.
Having travelled through and lived in a number of countries I've never seen any real difference in build quality of vehicles. They often vary in style and trim, but I doubt if you took the same vehicle from several different countries that a person could tell the difference... that is unless they were arguing on an internet forum, in which case the builds of all countries but their own are crap.
Rollo, I applaud your points, and I accept most of what you said in terms of Americans demanding cheaper cars. That said, cheaper doesn't always mean less reliable or less well designed. The fact is, Corollas are some of the statistically most reliable cars in the North American market. Built 2 hours to the west of me in Cambridge ON. Honda Accords are also to that high standard, built in Ohio. GM has built good and bad cars all over the continent, but as a rule have not matched the Japanese makers for quality on a consistent basis. Same populace, same market conditions, different management and design.
So I think there is more in the terms of design features at work here. The top of the line of any car maker will be built to a better standard, but if the design isn't what it should be, then over time, the difference shows. Now that GM has more or less upped their game, I expect the Cadillac's that have the great ratings for performance (CTS-V) and the like will maybe hold up better over time.
I do think though you guys in Europe do see the best ideas for cars, at least in the case of the smaller cars in particular. North American marketing people don't grasp that small cars can be fun in the same way people who designed the New Fiesta and Focus in Europe have.