"Mathematically Impossible to Pay Off US Debt"

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Originally Posted by Alexamateo

A question.

Does it even matter? I mean virtually all money is fiat money, which means a Dollar or an Euro is worth a Dollar or an Euro only because the government says it is.

I can see where deficits would lead to inflation so debts today are paid off in the future with cheaper money in the future, but really, the only thing that gives money value is our faith that government and rule of law (property rights) won't collapse.

As an aside, I don't think the gold standard is any better. What is gold? It's just a shiny metal with some industrial uses that is also used for ornamentation and jewelry. If it has to be based in a commodity, why not lumber? If push came to shove, I could at least build stuff with it.

When I think about it sometimes, all economics is really a house of cards, so I really try not to think about it too much. ;)

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Mostly, I agree. Money only has value because we think it does. Although in all fairness, it's easier to carry a bunch of paper instead of a bunch of 2 by 4s.

Look at it this way, a lot of third world countries either don't pay off their debt or get it forgiven. In another 8 months or so Obama will have us below third world status and we can walk away from it. Hell, Somalia and Haiti will be sending us aid.

In a way, I wouldn't mind seeing us hit rock bottom. Those that still embrace the fundamental American values and work ethic will regroup, rebuild, and drive on to rise again. The deadweight seeking nanny will cannibalize themselves and destroy each other.

With some realistic thinking and some voluntary balance, all this could be worked out.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

As the entire world has just seen, but the implications escaped you, is that banks and financial institutions do whatever they want to and what they want to do, regardless of anything else, is MAKE MONEY.
THEY with their embedded former CEOs etc in Government positions, tell the Government what to do, not the other way.
We just saw it nakedly with the Trillion dollars of Government--taxpayer---money forked over to them....

Only a silly person would suggest otherwise.



They lent, even on risky ventures like ME! because just writing a loan, flilling in my name at the top of a mortage contract and hitting PRINT could make them 6%.
6% of a couple of hundred thousand dollars for the time to type john vanlandingham and an address.
Their cost for the clerk doing the typing, a couple of bucks, the paper, about 130 sheets, the minimum they make was several thousand dollars for a couple of minutes "work" if i defaulted in 1 month;
the most is over $400,000 profit when the loan is repaid....

that's called a "good risk".

Try coming down to earth occasionally......

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They have corrupted government, That was part of my point, and they lent you money, which was a good risk. AS for your assertion of the "work" they didn't do...they are the bank. Who else would lend you the money. You want me to condemn bankers? You obviously harbor some hostility towards them.

I think the US banking community is too corrupted by the government's meddling, and I am of the opinion they should have let a few of them go broke if not all of them. None of them were too big to fail....but both parties down there had it into their head the world was coming to an end if the banks were not bailed out.

Funny enough, as I said (and you haven't disputed) the banks were into much of this mess because of pressure from government to lend more money more freely for mortgages to targeted renters..

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So unless you are willing to fundamentally change the current system, you might as well quit complaining about the U.S. national debt because it is now mathematically impossible to pay it off.

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US Public Debt Stands at circa $12,372,898,000,000 or $40,089 per person (est at 22:07pm 05/02/2010 - GMT)
All that would need to be done is collect that amount in revenue though the instrument of taxation sufficient to cover the interest bill. The only method of doing this would be to raise taxes and cut spending.

Seeing as the three biggest expenses in the US Budget are Defense, Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, coupled with an aging population as a result of the post war baby boom and a future shrinking of the tax base as those people leave the workforce...
... and the fact that the US Dept of Defense is practically a holy grail and can not be touched.
... and people object to paying taxes in the first place...

...then probably yes.

Cost will continue to rise whilst revenues will fall relative to them.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

US Public Debt Stands at circa $12,372,898,000,000 or $40,089 per person (est at 22:07pm 05/02/2010 - GMT)
All that would need to be done is collect that amount in revenue though the instrument of taxation sufficient to cover the interest bill. The only method of doing this would be to raise taxes and cut spending.

Seeing as the three biggest expenses in the US Budget are Defense, Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, coupled with an aging population as a result of the post war baby boom and a future shrinking of the tax base as those people leave the workforce...
... and the fact that the US Dept of Defense is practically a holy grail and can not be touched.
... and people object to paying taxes in the first place...

...then probably yes.

Cost will continue to rise whilst revenues will fall relative to them.

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The Defense dept. has had one cut, the F-22 Raptor but I bet there are some things that will follow.

Growing the economy over time should help erase the debt, but with an aging population and a reluctance to pay higher taxes, it will bring a lot of pressure on a lot more parts of the budget. Obama planned to really add more taxes on the richer part of the Income Tax bracket and kill the estate tax, but I suspect that isn't really doing to do much but drive capital offshore.

Sticky issue for sure, but The USA isn't the only nation in a coffin corner fiscally. The UK I know is in the Red, and Canada after being in the black for 9 straight years is now back in the red with many of the same demographic traps of an aging population the USA has.

There are no easy solutions, although Jan figures it will all be hunky dory, and of course...he is always right...just ask him.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Funny enough, as I said (and you haven't disputed) the banks were into much of this mess because of pressure from government to lend more money more freely for mortgages to targeted renters..

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Let me put it clearer since your reading comprehension is so clouded by your own voice which never ceases repeating platitudes:

You are full of crap.
Only an idiot would believe and suggest that banks were forced to do ANYTHING that they didn't want to.


I though saying that a little bit more polite would suffice, but you drone on so relentlessly repeating the same childish crap taken unfiltered from Limgbaugh, Hennity, Beck and their imitators that I guess i need to speak clearer for you to hear.

" but you drone on so relentlessly repeating the same childish crap..."

You think you're any different? Or is it ok if you take crap unfiltered from Lenin, Marx, and Mao?

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Let me put it clearer since your reading comprehension is so clouded by your own voice which never ceases repeating platitudes:

You are full of crap.
Only an idiot would believe and suggest that banks were forced to do ANYTHING that they didn't want to.


I though saying that a little bit more polite would suffice, but you drone on so relentlessly repeating the same childish crap taken unfiltered from Limgbaugh, Hennity, Beck and their imitators that I guess i need to speak clearer for you to hear.

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John, If you continue to not have a point, I am just going to tune you out. I didn't get this from right wing cranks. Any serious look at a lot of my post on a few subjects would tell you that contrary to your wee mind, I am open minded. Quite frankly, if I said what I thought of your debating skills, I would get my tail banned and you aint worth it.

Your posts are insulting and never seem to acknowledge anyone who doesn't share your left wing view of the world, and quite frankly it would be insulting if I had respect for your points, but at some point, I tuned them out.


PS...the banks were Freddy Mac and Fannie May, which last I heard, were semi gov't controlled. The intereference in the banking system by governments of both stripes is out there if you are not sitting there under you socialist umbrella telling everyone how smart you are....

Oh one last point John. After a night's sleep, I will put you on ignore....there are many leftwing cranks I can debate. Some of them I actually respect. I know you find THAT hard to believe but civilized people don't take politics as a blood sport, but you do and I don't need to validate your mindless assertions and insults any more...

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Let me put it clearer since your reading comprehension is so clouded by your own voice which never ceases repeating platitudes:

You are full of crap.
Only an idiot would believe and suggest that banks were forced to do ANYTHING that they didn't want to.


I though saying that a little bit more polite would suffice, but you drone on so relentlessly repeating the same childish crap taken unfiltered from Limgbaugh, Hennity, Beck and their imitators that I guess i need to speak clearer for you to hear.

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So Janet Reno threatening procecution under Civil Rights Laws had no effect what so ever?

Don't know why I even ask these questions, I already know the answer. But I guess I'm just not to the same point as Mark, yet, but I'm getting there quickly.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

So Janet Reno threatening procecution under Civil Rights Laws had no effect what so ever?

Don't know why I even ask these questions, I already know the answer. But I guess I'm just not to the same point as Mark, yet, but I'm getting there quickly.

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Don't interrupt him...he is on a roll......

Quite Frankly Chuck, this debate is pretty much dead. John has spoken, and how dare we contradict him? He is SO smart and we got our brains out the same Cracker Jack Box that Glenn Beck did.

I think if we all just ignore the white noise, he would get the message...but I do see how some might find him mildly amusing....