The world of Fiero, so he has spoken, so it shall be.

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Originally Posted by Eki

What about them? China hasn't invaded them.

Edit: OK, I was wrong China attacked Vietnam in 1979 after Vietnam had invaded Cambodia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War



But still, Korea?

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China has made many runs at Vietnam in the last 2000 years. And Vietnam does what it always does, beat them outright or wait them out. The last incursion in '79 was not a victory on both sides. You had army consisting of indifferent conscripts led by officers with no experience invading the home turf of a country that was coming off 20 years of constant warfare with France, the USA, Korea, Austraia, and others. People forget that the USA in Vietnam was actually part of a SEATO operation.

Anyway, Vietnam allowed China to wander in deep enough then closed the door and started kicking the hell out of the Chinese. Noting that things were not going well, China announced Vietnam had been punished enough and made it officially ok to throw your equipment away and flee for the border. Fortunately for Vietnam, China has not elected to punish them again for offenses real or imagined.

China, other than size, is a complete unknown in the area of military effectiveness. The way wars have been fought from WWII to present makes the reaction of the civillian population unknown.

I don't think anyone wants a shooting war with China over Taiwan. I don't believe China has a modern, effective field army either. China does have enough people to just completely overwhelm Taiwan. Logistic support for Chinese troops in Taiwan is a walk in the park. Maintaining logstic support for SEATO troops and Taiwanese civillians would be a nightmare and probably not possible. I think Taiwan would employ the standard Asian capitalist battle plan early on. The wealthy, high political figures, and high level military officers will grab their wealth, hoarded gold, and anything else of value they can carry and refugee their butts out of there. A few field grade officers with dedicated troops will try to offer some resistance but will be overwhelmed quickly. The working classes that cannot refugee out of there will just submit to the new authority. It's hard to justify losing your life to protect your country when those above you, sworn to protect you and your country, left town last week.

China can have Taiwan if it wants it, but doing it in agreement with the Taiwanese would be better.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

I think Obama is pulling back into military isolationism as much as possible. He now says he intends to start the withdrawl from Afghanistan in 2011. He set no conditions for withdrawl, only that we're leaving. If the Taliban and al-Qaeda factions are smart, they will cease operations and allow him to flee. The faster things quiet down, the faster we will leave. The planned, world saving invasion of Iran in order to defang their nuclear program has been called off. Obama, far from having the respect of world leadership, is instead viewed as an arrogant, glib, gutless joke. He is an organizer, not a leader. The majority of people that voted him into office in this country now wish they hadn't. He knows that some in his own party wanted to put George Bush on trial over Irag. He sees what the Brits are doing, foolishly, to Blair over Iraq. Without an intentional, overt act of war by the Iranian government, Obama, thankfully, won't be invading. In fact, we will be coming home from the Middle East completely. The man went to the Middle East offering to bring peace to the region and was sent packing. You don't do that to a man with Obama's arrogance and ego. His plan rejected, he will be quite content to watch the region tear itself to shreds. Everybody, including the Saudis and Israel, will be on their own.

I'll be glad we are leaving. We have no business there.

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A few thoughts Fireo. First off, I agree in that Obama is thin skinned and isn't impressed by the fact no one in the Middle East seems to care what he thinks. I disagree he wanted to go into Iran. Obama hasn't that sort of temper for that sort of thing. I think avoiding conflicts abroad is more his idea of foreign policy, and that is fine until you back your nation into a corner.

Telling the world you are pulling out on a set date is utter stupidity. Might as well leave now and forget the whole thing then. It disrepects the losses suffered already, but Obama could care less about that. The reality is Obama isn't going to get the Miltary vote and never did, so what he does with them matters little to him.

As for leaving the Middle East to their devices, well I think the US has in theory wanted to do that, but keeps finding ways to get stuck in there. Isolationism in US foreign policy doesn't seem to work Fiero. Too many nations expect the US to do something, until of course they do it, and then it is all wrong....because we all know that no matter who is President, or what happens, it is all the American's fault.....right Eki? It is always their fault? Or did I miss something?

Eki...by the way...ask the Koreans about the police action called the Korean War? Who you think has propped up those nut jobs starving the North Koreans to death in one of the most awful regimes on earth?

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

A few thoughts Fireo. First off, I agree in that Obama is thin skinned and isn't impressed by the fact no one in the Middle East seems to care what he thinks. I disagree he wanted to go into Iran. Obama hasn't that sort of temper for that sort of thing. I think avoiding conflicts abroad is more his idea of foreign policy, and that is fine until you back your nation into a corner.

Telling the world you are pulling out on a set date is utter stupidity. Might as well leave now and forget the whole thing then. It disrepects the losses suffered already, but Obama could care less about that. The reality is Obama isn't going to get the Miltary vote and never did, so what he does with them matters little to him.

As for leaving the Middle East to their devices, well I think the US has in theory wanted to do that, but keeps finding ways to get stuck in there. Isolationism in US foreign policy doesn't seem to work Fiero. Too many nations expect the US to do something, until of course they do it, and then it is all wrong....because we all know that no matter who is President, or what happens, it is all the American's fault.....right Eki? It is always their fault? Or did I miss something?

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Too many nations expect the US to do something??? Nonsense, as they have a habit of going it no matter what anyone else thinks...those days have come to a halt im glad to say....

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

Too many nations expect the US to do something??? Nonsense, as they have a habit of going it no matter what anyone else thinks...those days have come to a halt im glad to say....

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BS...do you remember the abuse Clinton got for NOT doing something to stop the slaughter in Rwanda? How about all the abuse George Clooney and the like gave Bush for NOT putting troops on the ground to stop the slaughter in Darfur. It appears if the US goes in, they are the bad guys (Iraq) or doesn't go in (Rwanda and Darfur). By the way, when they go in, and leave the job they went into finish (Somalia) it often is a worse result than not going there at all.

Sorry Mark, I do think Obama had/has an invasion plan for Iran to cripple their nuclear programs. Obama ran under "hope and change" without being specific about what those changes would be. He has ego and arrogance on par with Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, and Saddam. If the world does a turn around, acknowledges Obama's obvious superiority and comes forth on bended knee seeking help in stopping Iran's nuclear program, then he will invade and stomp their nukes. The pleas for help must be public and not back room deals. But, every country in the Middle East including Israel has spanked Obama and sent him, his offers, and his threats on his way. The idiots in Britain are deep frying Blair for trying to do a right thing, while they make excuses for the likes of Mugabe and his minions.

Obama will not invade Iran without a clear and public worldwide mandate.

The USA is finished as a global military power for at least the next 3 years. Anybody expecting help or looking for help from us better start looking elsewhere.

Alright class. Jihad. To me, and I could be wrong, is an Islamic term defining a holy war. I would think the conditions of a holy war would be set in stone by Allah and not open to change or negotiations by mere humans. Therefore, a Jihad has absolute goals and continues until one side or another is beaten, or the goals of the jihad have been met.

The Taliban's jihad is to bring the world to the love of Islam and the imposition of Sharia Law worldwide.

Most of the al-Qaeda factions and similar organizations are doing jihad for the same reasons as the Taliban.

Bin Laden's jihad is more directly anti-American. First he wanted the USA out of Israel, then out of Saudi Arabia, then out of both, and now out of the Middle East completely.

From day one I have told you that none of this is about Islam except for the grunt troops, bombers, etc. That is how they are recruited and kept focused on their mission and sold to the media.

The mid and top level thugs know it for the ciminal organization it is. They are in it for money and power.

Pakistan entered into an agreement with the Taliban wich has not gone well, but it was an attempt. As one Taliban fighter said "they promised us jobs but did not keep their promise."

The government of Yemen is trying to negotiate a settlement with their al-Qaeda faction.

The Kabul government in Afghanistan wants to negotiate a settlement with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Bin Laden, not realizing nobody is going to negotiate with him about anything, has now entered the Global Warming fight. He is not doing a good job of keeping up with the media and doesn't know how very few still buy into man made global warming. Although he still commands power within his group and is still dangerous, the rest of radical Islam has dismissed him as a total meatball.

The mere fact that all are now willing to negotiate should expose their entire jihad pretense as the lie it is. To the fighter in Pakistan, What does not being given a job have to do with converting the world to Islam? How does getting a job end your sacred duty to jihad? What kind of an idiot includes global warming in a jihad?

It's not about Islam, never was.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Sorry Mark, I do think Obama had/has an invasion plan for Iran to cripple their nuclear programs. Obama ran under "hope and change" without being specific about what those changes would be. He has ego and arrogance on par with Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, and Saddam. If the world does a turn around, acknowledges Obama's obvious superiority and comes forth on bended knee seeking help in stopping Iran's nuclear program, then he will invade and stomp their nukes. The pleas for help must be public and not back room deals. But, every country in the Middle East including Israel has spanked Obama and sent him, his offers, and his threats on his way. The idiots in Britain are deep frying Blair for trying to do a right thing, while they make excuses for the likes of Mugabe and his minions.

Obama will not invade Iran without a clear and public worldwide mandate.

The USA is finished as a global military power for at least the next 3 years. Anybody expecting help or looking for help from us better start looking elsewhere.

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You are right on Obama being rather proud (arrogant? some would say...) and how the Middle East nations have more or less dismissed his grovelling, but I can tell you that the Obama administration would invade Iran is you reading this all wrong. After the shellacking Bush and Blair have taken in opinion around the world, even if he WANTED to attack, he would.

Let's face it, Obama is a proud guy but he was elected on ridiculing America's invasion of the willing in Iraq and he the way he dithered on the surge in Afghanistan says to me he wouldn't go to war if the missles are in the air. You have read Obama wrong Fiero. He is a guy who would try to negotiate as his throat was being cut. It is the reason none of the nations in the Middle East will give him a hearing. It would be worse (and I cant believe I am saying this) if not for Hillary Clinton. I think they see Obama as naive, but I think the nations there have some comfort level with Hillary...

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Alright class. Jihad. To me, and I could be wrong, is an Islamic term defining a holy war. I would think the conditions of a holy war would be set in stone by Allah and not open to change or negotiations by mere humans. Therefore, a Jihad has absolute goals and continues until one side or another is beaten, or the goals of the jihad have been met.

The Taliban's jihad is to bring the world to the love of Islam and the imposition of Sharia Law worldwide.

Most of the al-Qaeda factions and similar organizations are doing jihad for the same reasons as the Taliban.

Bin Laden's jihad is more directly anti-American. First he wanted the USA out of Israel, then out of Saudi Arabia, then out of both, and now out of the Middle East completely.

From day one I have told you that none of this is about Islam except for the grunt troops, bombers, etc. That is how they are recruited and kept focused on their mission and sold to the media.

The mid and top level thugs know it for the ciminal organization it is. They are in it for money and power.

Pakistan entered into an agreement with the Taliban wich has not gone well, but it was an attempt. As one Taliban fighter said "they promised us jobs but did not keep their promise."

The government of Yemen is trying to negotiate a settlement with their al-Qaeda faction.

The Kabul government in Afghanistan wants to negotiate a settlement with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Bin Laden, not realizing nobody is going to negotiate with him about anything, has now entered the Global Warming fight. He is not doing a good job of keeping up with the media and doesn't know how very few still buy into man made global warming. Although he still commands power within his group and is still dangerous, the rest of radical Islam has dismissed him as a total meatball.

The mere fact that all are now willing to negotiate should expose their entire jihad pretense as the lie it is. To the fighter in Pakistan, What does not being given a job have to do with converting the world to Islam? How does getting a job end your sacred duty to jihad? What kind of an idiot includes global warming in a jihad?

It's not about Islam, never was.

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To those that are recruited to be foot soldiers, it is about Islam. They are sucked in by these criminals such as Bin Laden and the Sheik of the month club in the Taliban. Islamic hardliners hate everything about Western society, and the criminals as you describe ARE all about explioting this and pouring gasoline on this dissent.

The leaders are just crooks, but the reason this works is because the guy putting the dynomite in his undies DOES believe. AS Hitler discovered in Russia, a motivated soldier willing to be more fatalistic about dying will win, no matter how good your guys are if everything else is equal.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Eki...by the way...ask the Koreans about the police action called the Korean War? Who you think has propped up those nut jobs starving the North Koreans to death in one of the most awful regimes on earth?

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If China invaded North Korea, then the US invaded South Korea. And Germany invaded Finland both in 1918 and 1941.