[quote="Wraith"]
The irrational individuals in question do exist, I have exchanged messages with them on forums such as this.
QUOTE]
Irrational as compared to whom or what?
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[quote="Wraith"]
The irrational individuals in question do exist, I have exchanged messages with them on forums such as this.
QUOTE]
Irrational as compared to whom or what?
"***!!!!!@#!#!!!!! If the price of American open-wheel continuing is for it to exist under HIS leadership, then I'd rather see everything parked, no more open-wheel in America, anywhere AT ALL, and then the Master Control Tower blown to smitherines, just to show my hate of IMS!! WHAT?!!? It's called the Bombardy-something PAGODA now?! ***!!!!#!@!!!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Irrational individual.
Elsewhere:
"The only race that matters AT ALL is the Indianapolis 500! REAL racing once had men man-handling cast-iron chariots around on dirt circles, and tires driving up over each other in mad dash to win! Now'days, the damned Europeons got these upside-down airplane contraptions everywhere, and I HATE't!! If they ain't dirt trackin' or runnin' on da bricks, they ain't worth ****!!"
Irrational individual.
...at least, to those of us who love Indianapolis, dirt track racing, street racing, road racing, karting, NHRA drag racing, and anything else with machines specifically designed to go as fast as the engineers can get them to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Originally Posted by heelntoe
Time will tell as far as the settlement in this case if there is one, but as usual, you do not accept the completely incorrect angle to guilt...it is not a grey area! As to what it has to do with the CCWS series, only time will tell...personally, I think KK has already decided to close up shop and NHL's departure will finalize that closing. As far as IMG. CCWS is likely to lose that race by all that is known today and again, we'll wait and see. Again, I'm pretty comfortable with the 60 day timeframe I laid down.
Originally Posted by
heelntoe
Status: Online
Posts: 304
Join Date: Oct 2005
Originally Posted by
4th Oct 07, 11:06
Originally Posted by sanguin
In your opinion.
CC can wait to see how the cash outlay works for the other series.That will be very telling. I don't think CC has anything to worry about. IMO
CC Cannot wait another year...it can't wait another 60 days without proving to its teams, sponsors and venues that it has the money to do so.
Originally Posted by sanguin
Here it is, 60 days from Oct. 4. It's on.
Remember this-
"We can only conclude that these rumors are being started by someone with malicious intent."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63049
Well here we are, 60 days later. Another prediction by an "insider" proved false.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
:rolleyes:
Sanguin, as i posted some time back, I have no problem eating crow for incorrect predictions...mine is best with port wine reduction :) However, unless you're one of the amigos, any insider, in my case, a former insider dating back a few years, can be as wrong as anyone else. I must also state that I cannot, for the life of me, see why KK's continuing to finance CCWS with so many hurdles to clear. The recent sponsor mess with Steeback and Pay-By-Touch are indicative of these hurdles...both situations were not the fault of CCWS, but when you can't interest major sponsorship, you pretty much have to accept what you can get. Taking the series abroad for so many races will only make the sponsor component harder for both the series and the teams. Lastly, I still think PN's done and will announce his retirement...i'll again be happy to eat crow if I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
A good read-
http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarp...e-bb89bd31f426
PN doesn't do any heavy lifting sponsoring a team. I don't think you could keep him away from the track if you tried. It's all pleasure for him.
I don't think anything CC is experiencing is as bad as a sponsor suing to get out of a series.
Maybe, just maybe, KK likes the challenge involved in CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
Pat, I don't know a single successful business man or turn around guy that would shy away from a challenge, do you? So goes the saying "if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it". However, KK, when he announced his 5 year plan, truly believed he'd achieve it in three. Today, it is no closer than it was in 2003 despite the total spend he has to date...in fact, most balanced business men in racing would say they are worse off as they don't have a direction that has reflected two years consistent of anything. There comes a point where even a man accepting a challenge sees that good money going down the hole is a losing proposition...clearly he wouldn't be the first to accept this in professional motorsports.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Wiatrowski
But let's turn this back to what the Doc wrote about in the beginning...in your opinion, What's Next for CCWS in actually securing sponsors and reaching a self sustaining business plan?
Odd, I don't recall the intricate details of the oft-mentioned 5 Year Plan ever being made public.
As a fan, no, I'm not satisfied with where the series is now. But when it comes to the business of Champ Car, I think it's becoming (increasingly) clear that no one here has any amount of reliable data on where the series stands financially. There tends to be more flighty speculation here (on both sides) than on the average penny stock message board.
I'm not convinced if a five-year plan existed, it didn't change several times.
That "changing" is common practice in business and is considered "good business"..Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Oh.
Some people just don't get it. They'd rather see plans cast in stone with no changes at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Wiatrowski
It's worked wonders hasn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Wiatrowski
Yep...wonders. I wonder what 2008 will be like. Then again, at least there will be a 2008 season, so all is not lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Well, wait a minute... I thought there wasn't going to be a 2008 season?! I guess like this 5 Year Plan, the consensus at ***** changes from time to time as well. :D
Although, in this case it is pretty difficult to distinguish from "wandering aimlessly."Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Wiatrowski
:\
ClarkFan
All business plans are fluid. The economy and environment change from year to year so it has to be able to adjust to the prevailing conditions...
what's the CrackForum ?
Bob Riebe: Bob! Dude! The Nethead here has missed your impeccably informed postings so much since the demise of the old AutoWeek forums that I had to google you up and see how you're doin'! You last posted here at the end of November, so I hope you'll read this response soon and post a reply!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Either update me here, or name the thread in this forum in which you will post an update. I will reply in kind. I gotta give another presentation in twelve minutes :dozey: so I can't linger. In the meantime, I hope all is well with you, your family, and your co-workers!
The Nethead here :s mokin:
This sounds familiar. Are two 2008 races in trouble already?
From the AR1 Rumors page:
"Champ Car schedule to reduce to 12 races?
A reader writes, Dear AutoRacing1.com I have been following the problems with Champ Car this past season and I trust nothing that the ownership and management says without external confirmation of what they claim. With Champ Car recent 2007 cancellations and mind, I recently read the item in your news section about the FIA World Motorsports Council approving the 2008 Champ Car schedule with suspicion. I later checked with the Champ Car World Series web site and saw that they had their full fourteen race 2008 schedule up. Being still untrusting of this, I then went to the FIA site and looked into the calendars section. I found the attached PDF dated today that shows only 12 approved races. I do not see Zolder or Jerez listed. This does not surprise me. From what I have been told by several people I know inside the industry, both races had serious issues that needed resolution and that was unlikely unless the CCWS owners wrote yet another big large check. Apparently that has not happened. It seems like Champ Car has not learned from the disasters of 2007. Buddy Jobe
Dear Buddy, A Champ Car spokesperson told AutoRacing1.com that "Yes, the FIA requested some additional minor information, but that is just a formality and we fully expect the two races in question to get final FIA approval soon." Mark C."
Wasn't Buddy Jobe once the owner of Phoenix International Raceway? It's unlikely he would start a baseless rumor.
I have been reading this forum while watching events in Champ Car and the Indy Car Series for the past few months without comment. However, the underwhelming Champ Car TV schedule announcement this week coupled with today's news of Rafa Matos going to the Indy Pro Series and Tony Cotman calling it quits brings me back to the question that started this thread:
What happens next?
Do Rafa and Tony both know something we don't?
If you are still positive about Champ Car and want to take on the challenge, please do lay out how you think Champ Car will survive and prosper despite all of the negatives of the past year. If you take this on, also spare us the "Honda-is-leaving-the-IRL-and-TG-will-be-forced-to-the-table" scenario. Just share with us what it is that Champ Car can REALISTICALLY do to gain momentum, presence and commercial traction — without a pipe dream $50 million advertising and marketing spending spree by the CCWS owners.
I'll be honest with you, Tony Cotman's suddent departure came as a punch in the stomach. Cotman was the one undeniable home run of a Champ Car decision the last few years. He straightened out the chaos of the offciating and race direction and made an efficient unit. It's hard to be positive after this, Matos, and the TV deal (I'm still studying that), but I'm trying to hang in there. The Amigos continue to test our loyalty...Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
Tony Cotman is great guy and a straight shooter. From what I have seen, he was the backbone of the company. Without him, I believe that the dominos will fall badly. It all comes down to an intuitive ability to communicate confidence and credibility. He has that gift and sadly, this is what the majority of Champ Car's staff lacks. Please forgive me, but maturity and experience lead me to not believe any of them when they try to spin me. Why? Because they look and sound like they don't believe themselves. Who can blame them? Results start with the attitude at the top and actions always speak louder than words so what happens next will tell the tale of the good ship Champtannic. The paddock buzz suggests that the Amigos aren't actually amigos at all and from what I continue to observe, they don't seem to really care all that much about their staff, their drivers, their teams, their promoters, their partners and most importantly, their fans. How can anyone run a successful business by behaving like this? I suspect that is the same conclusion that TC and Rafa reached over the past few weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
Gordon Kiby posted the following letter from a fan named Jim Strong on his web site today (gordonkirby.com) and I believe that it speaks for many of us who are simply tired of the stupidity that sees the split continuing into its 13 year. After reading the rumor that Tony Cotman is headed to the IRL and looking at the state of both series I can't help but once again wonder "what happens next?:
Ladies & gentlemen:
As a fan of American open-wheel racing, I have to say that enough is enough. Both sides of the divide have worked so hard to drive the sport that I love so far into the dirt to make it almost unrecognizable in regards to what it once was. People I know who were once true fans of open-wheel racing have either left for the greener pastures of NASCAR, or no longer watch or care about racing at all. This is mostly because both series fail to hold a candle to CART in its heyday.
CART became my favorite series because, in my opinion, it was really the greatest driver's championship in the world. I know there are/were many who were also of that same opinion.
I started out as a drag racing fan attending races at Irwindale Raceway, but loved to take in everything: Sprint cars at Ascot Park, Local hardtops at speedway 605, NASCAR at Riverside. I have camped out on many occasions in turn four at Ontario Motor Speedway to watch both Champcars and NASCAR, and have even done so at Fontana. I have gone out to support Vintage Club Racing and I have stood at the top of Laguna Seca to watch Champcars plunge through the corkscrew. I have even dragged myself out of bed at 4:00am to cheer on Eddie Cheever, Michael Andretti and Scott Speed as they raced against some of the best drivers and teams in the world. I have been to the Test In The West at Fontana and Spring Training at Laguna Seca. I attend open testing at Fontana when Champcar comes around. My point here is this: 1. I've been around for quite awhile, and I'm not a Johnny-come-lately to motorsports, and 2. Even though I love a wide variety of racing, nothing captured my heart and imagination like CART.
Tell me, what was there not to love about a series that included Super Speedways, Short Ovals (Not to mention a tri-oval and even a Roval), Natural Road Courses and Street Circuits? There were several different Chassis and several different engines. It was the most unique series in the world and by the account of many, the greatest series in the world. A series so great, that the reigning world champion left F1 to run CART rather than defend his title. Additionally, CART was a series that drew drivers from all over the world. And there were still plenty of Americans running the series.
I realize that CART had its problems. The original concept was to mimic what other pro sports were doing, where the teams would run the sport. It was an attempt to save the sport from USAC, and rightly so. But in other pro sports, the big teams in big markets have to look out for the interests of small teams in smaller markets. The CART board had members who were self-serving jerks who only wanted to "dominate" instead of looking after the little guys and really nurturing and growing the sport. You know who you are. If you don't know who you are, call up Dale Coyne. I'm sure he would be glad to explain it to you. But none of this is news to any of you. You already know all of this. I am rehashing this merely to make a later point.
Since the split, both sides have worked tirelessly to take something really great and reduce it to near ashes. Both sides have a complete disregard for the people that are supposed to matter: the FANS! Tony George, I once read a quote by you where you stated that "The people I talk to don't care about street racing." I'm sure that was true if the people that you were talking to were USAC officials. The fans that I have spoken to are still mourning the day you announced the IRL (I have spoken to many fans who will not watch or have anything to do with the IRL on principle alone.) Since then, the IRL has gone from horrible to merely being bad, but only after abandoning everything that the IRL set out to do in its original mission statement and now resembles "CART lite." CART has gone from great to lame. All of this is at the expense of those who buy the tickets. Both sides have created something so far removed from what the fans really crave, it's a wonder anyone shows up at all. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, listen to what I am saying. I am begging you to create something brilliant and to stop wallowing in mediocrity.
What do the fans really want? One series. One really great series. This is not something I am just making up. I have spoken to many fans, read message boards and blogs, and have attended fan forums. This is not just the wish of the fans. I have spoken to many journalists, drivers and team owners. Even Champcar ownership has lamented that there are two series. How is it possible that the fans, the journalists, the drivers, and the team and series ownership, the manufacturers and sponsors all want the same thing, but no one is able to make it happen? In a free market economy, when there is a need, someone jumps in to fill that need and is generally successful. This mess makes absolutely no sense. Everyone wants the same thing, and yet, for some bizarre reason we keep doing the opposite. Isn't that one definition of insanity? To keep doing the same thing and expect different results?
So, here is what I am proposing: either the series owners make it happen by 2010, or the team owners form CART II. Someone has to save this mess. CART was originally formed to save the sport from USAC. It could work this time, because now 20/20 hindsight exists. CART would not be destined to make the same mistakes. Look out for the little guys. Limit testing. Allow SOME development. Invite the manufacturers back. Invite the constructors back. Don't let them (manufacturers, constructors) give parts to some teams and not others. Keep costs in check. Restore the Indy 500 to greatness. Jeez, you're all smart guys, figure it out.
As a fan, and from what I know from talking to other fans, this is what we would like to see: Keep the Vanderbilt Cup, The Nations Cup, re-instate the manufacturers and constructors championships. 28 cars on the grid on race day. 33 cars at Indy. 20 races per season. Call it the Indycar World Series. The venues should include ovals, road and street courses.
Continue to part 2 in next post:
Part 2 of Jim Strong's open letter:
Here is my dream schedule:
Ovals would make up about a third of the season: Indy, California Speedway, Michigan (these three races would form the "triple crown." Win all three in a season, get a million dollar bonus. How about it Firestone?) Twin-Ring Motegi (This new series would really need to include Honda, since both series owe Honda a debt of gratitude, and in the case of CART/Champcar, an apology.) the Milwaukee Mile (because everyone goes to Milwaukee after Indy) Phoenix and Rockingham (Because England serves the purpose of a European date and it is the home of many manufacturers as well as several drivers.) You will notice the absence of Texas. We want the cars to be too fast to run on high banks. Please make the cars fast again.
The Road Courses would make up about a third also: Road America (while I have never been, I hear its something to see in person. Anyway this track looks really good on TV.) Laguna Seca, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Watkins Glen, Portland, Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez. (If you don't like the idea of Rockingham, how about Brands Hatch?)
Lastly, the street circuits: Long Beach, Houston, St. Pete, Surfer's Paradise (Australia is really stepping up to the plate) Detroit (set for a great comeback, hopefully, in the spiritual home of the American automotive industry) Cleveland, and Toronto.
The cars should look good and be pretty cutting edge. Let's get one thing straight. Spec series are for lower forms of racing, not what should be the pinnacle of American Motorsports. Whether by design, or de facto, spec is NOT the way to go. We want innovation and variety. This includes not only chassis, but probably even more important, engines. Look, American motorsport is often based on manufacturer rivalry. Doesn't everyone grow up on one side or the other of the Chevy vs. Ford debate? I know I did, just like many others. Let's see several manufacturers get involved. Make it interesting and they will come. It has worked for the American Le Mans Series.
Now, I will propose a very radical idea. Open it up to turbo diesel. Not just diesel, but bio-diesel. Create a very green series. What Audi has done in American Le Mans is excellent, but imagine if the cars ran on bio-diesel! This is so relevant to a country bent on weaning itself off petroleum.
As for chassis design, the IRL cars are flat out ugly. Sorry, but it's the truth. The Panoz is better, but seems to lack sponsor space. I'm sure you can come up with a format that would allow several manufacturers to design various versions that would be competitive and cost efficient. It should allow for close racing on any track, be serviceable and include on-board starters (a great idea that obviously needs some fine tuning since we never got to see it work).
As for the rules of competition, quit it with the manufactured excitement. The push to pass never created any drama. The "red" tires are an OK idea, but not any real drama either. How about this, have each team pick one type, either reds or regulars and run them the whole weekend. Now that would be interesting.
More local yellows. Please. No, Really. Especially at road courses. Keep the standing starts where you can, it adds to the variety of the sport, and thus makes for one more discipline to master.
Television Package: Races on ABC, Pre-race and qualifying on ESPN (with the exception of Indy) and Lifestyle shows on ESPN2.
As for the ladder series, keep Atlantics, and turn the IPS into something akin to GP2. Below Atlantics, Formula BMW and below that, Easycart. Total perfection. Have a scholarship for each series champion to take the next step.
Please make this happen for the sake of all of us. One series is the only thing that will get the regular media to take notice of American Open-Wheel racing again. Let's stop the madness, and return to greatness. Let common sense prevail.
Sincerely,
Jim Strong, Azusa, CA
This solves nothing. Nothing short of an ovalcentric series will be acceptable for the owner of the Indy 500. He made that clear 13 years ago, and it is just as clear today. This is nothing more than the framework of the next AOWR split, and is an attempt by an obvious CART/CCWS fan to try and save that series. Very transparent.
By 2010, I believe the solution will be more than obvious. And, considering the current state of affairs, this is ANYTHING but common sense.
As opposed to a post by a IRL fan, what's the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Nobody wants an ovalcentric series.
Hmmm, If "nobody wants an ovalcentric series" how did we all get to the current state of open wheel racing? Some people obviously do want it that way and it is also clear that some don't. You don't nor do the rest of your friends on CCF. On the flip side, some feel a 50/50 mix is best with the defining event being a 2.5 mile oval in Indianapolis as the centerpiece. You don't see it that way so we will all likely find out which view makes more sense. The market will decide regardless and the market seems to be voting "no" on ChampCar's ever-changing format.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Who said it would be 50/50,ovalcentric doesn't mean that. With the owner of IMS in charge without fetters, he could run amok without being fired or stopped. Getting rid of events that don't suit him or his business by making unreasonable demands and then dropping them saying its they're fault. We've seen that already.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
See you at Long Beach :D
Haven't gone to Indy since 1995.
I never understand why you continuously open yourself up to get slammed with posts like this UNLESS you mean that we've seen this already with Champcar. Your entire "out of control" theory about TG above is EXACTLY what the Amigos have been doing with Champcar since they bought the series. And frankly, it's truly a shame that the Amigos can't be fired or stopped.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
As for "ovalcentric", my point was that the event (Indy 500) that defines the sport and culture of America open wheel racing is an oval (IMS). Unless you can prove that you and your friends (employers?) The Sacred Amigos own that word, I will continue to use it as I see fit.
Running amok has certainly not been limited to TG and his merry men. All eras of CART and Champ Car have also seen sterling examples of the art and science of "amoking up". The current era in particular is a primer on how to lose friends and negatively influence people. One disturbing trend we have seen from both sides is the dropping of events that don't make sense. Has anyone bothered to really understand why? You can't always blame the promoter. BTW, how many of Champ Car's races are actually paying a real sanction fee these days? I keep hearing that Laguna Seca, Portland, St. Jovite, Road America, Zolder, and Jerez are freebees. I guess you can't blame the promoter then!
Sanguin, I'll will see you in Long Beach. I have been to every LBGP since day one and have seen F-5000, F1, CART Indy Cars then the OWRS Champ Cars which, BTW, have been the least impressive show. I always wonder if I am seeing the last OWRS race there and I am sure I am not alone in that regard. The ALMS race there last year was outstanding and their paddock made Champ Car's look like a pathertic club race by comparison. I am not happy to see that and I doubt that things will change this year despite the usual blind zeal of the TG failthful here and on CCF. Regardless, my hope is that this race lives to see a better day but I doubt it will come at the hands of the current event and series ownership who seem to be influenced by delusions and fanatics rather than common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
I agree. While the Amigos have shown they can run billion dollar businesses, they have equally shown their ineptness in running a race series.
Some facts for you to soak up:Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
-Less events this year
-TV contract is a pay for TV time, not a ture contract
-No new teams
-An unbadged engine
-More paying drivers here than at Fast times...
-No money in the till.....
The IRL
-#1 watched and attended OW race in the US
-PAID TV contract, in HD to boot!
-Higher TV ratings
-TV drivers on TV commercials
-Series promoted on TV and print
-Honda onboard!
-The top teams in OW racing, save for NHL (which is about to change...)
I agree on one point, and that is the Atlanitcs series. Fanatstic, and has a good TV offering.
Other than that, drugs are bad. Very bad.
CC does get sanction fees and the ALMS paddock is okay,but it isn't that great.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
You would think the IRL would be more successful and not have a sponsor suing to get out. NHL is not going to IRL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt21
someone should tell Tony George that! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt21
What is going on here? Did any of you even read Jim Strong's letter? I think only one of you who posted after his letter appeared (tbyars) barely addressed its content, before you all got into personal sniping again. Yikes.
Please read what he is saying. He has some good ideas, a lot more than what has been posted on this forum recently (myself included) for all the debate we've been having as to how to resolve this mess we're all in, both CC and IRL fans. Strong has stepped away from being an advocate of either series and stopped drinking the split kool-aid altogether. His speaks for me and echos much of what Cmdr Keen and I have been debating on other threads.
Before you all get neck deep in further personal attacks, which seem easier that dealing the concept itself, I challange all of you to read Jim Strong's letter, and deal with the ideas he proposes.
At one point in his letter, Strong advocates for an even break up of the racetracks, in thirds, between ovals, roadcourses, and street courses. Nothing "ovalcentric" here (Strong does insist that the Indy 500 must be returned to its former level of greatness. Who could argue with that?). Is that a good idea? If not, why?
Strong also says it might be a good idea to make the cars run on alternate fuels, like diesel, as Audi does in ALMS. Good idea? Why or why not?
Strong also suggests maybe it's time for a team to choose the type of tires it wants to run, either red or normal tires for an entire race. How about that? Agree or disagree, and why?
Show me something. Show me you know as much as this guy Jim Strong, and if you don't like his ideas, what would you suggest? And keep it on the racing, if you can.
C'mon, bring it. I'm waiting.
Thanks Chaparral66 for posting the above. It was the reason I posted Mr. Strong's letter from Gordon Kirby's site in "what happens next" in the first place and I think it touches on the reason that Dr. Jack probably started this particular tread that now has over 750 replies and more than 30,000 views. How can all this move forward again to a better future? I like much of what was written by Mr. Strong and it wasn't about politics, it was about the content of the sport. Pushing hate and cultural division is not going to help the sport progress. My hope is that the majority of us who still care about this sport realize that and if we all push for healing rather than more pain and wasted years, dollars and careers the future will be worth fighting for. Justifying the mistakes of the past is doomed to failure (on both sides).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
1. Its rating goes down every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt21
2. The people paying for it state they did not want to pay for it.
3. Double, that is true .. but at only 1.1 and headed to below 1.0 this year.
4. No effect, at all
5. During CC commercials, so "no one" sees them
6. And trying to leave asap
7. All former CART teams and more IRL teams leaving.
Rosy glasses are being worn by both sides, unfortunately.
Compared to CC the IRL may be better, but that is not saying much.