Silly Season 2020

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

30th October 2019, 07:09
ggg377

Quote:

Originally Posted by racerx1979

Also the bashing of Mia is a little crazy to be honest. She is not the only one running the show. They've achieved a lot so far. Imagine if Toyota was still struggling to get a grip. It would be a boring season...

The arguments used in that post are nonsense. If employees are mass leaving a company in a short time, which explanation do you think is more likely, that all the employees collectively discovered that the salary level and cultural environment are not appealing in Estonia and Finland (the management explanation) or perhaps there is something toxic happening behind the scenes? As far as Mia, that is the problem that most insiders point to. You can't brush off Lappi's leaving like that either. His second half of 2018 was brilliant and yet he left it behind for an underperforming C3. I don't think Ogier will dive head first into that mess either. Lappi is his teammate and Tänak is his friend. He can ask TGR anything in the negotiations, because he has options and they don't. TGR had one job - keep Tänak and they bombed it.
30th October 2019, 07:25
surdna

Estonian media said that Ogier has 1+1 with Citroën but also the contract states that if he is not continuing with Citroën he is not allowed to go to any other team. Wondering is this true because theres a lot of rumours Ogier>Toyota, but it seems he cant go even if he would like to.
30th October 2019, 07:39
Andre Oliveira

Autosport.pt said the same. Clause anti-rivals.
30th October 2019, 07:48
EstWRC

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggg377

The arguments used in that post are nonsense. If employees are mass leaving a company in a short time, which explanation do you think is more likely, that all the employees collectively discovered that the salary level and cultural environment are not appealing in Estonia and Finland (the management explanation) or perhaps there is something toxic happening behind the scenes? As far as Mia, that is the problem that most insiders point to. You can't brush off Lappi's leaving like that either. His second half of 2018 was brilliant and yet he left it behind for an underperforming C3. I don't think Ogier will dive head first into that mess either. Lappi is his teammate and Tänak is his friend. He can ask TGR anything in the negotiations, because he has options and they don't. TGR had one job - keep Tänak and they bombed it.

great post!

absolutely agreed, if two great drivers are willing to leave by their own in a year from a very good car, it must be something very wrong behind the scenes.

Im not saying its Mia, it can be someone else but something is definitely wrong there.
30th October 2019, 07:48
er88

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggg377

As far as Mia, that is the problem that most insiders point to. You can't brush off Lappi's leaving like that either. His second half of 2018 was brilliant and yet he left it behind for an underperforming C3. I don't think Ogier will dive head first into that mess either. Lappi is his teammate and Tänak is his friend. He can ask TGR anything in the negotiations, because he has options and they don't. TGR had one job - keep Tänak and they bombed it.

Lappi is hardly a clear loss for Toyota and Makinen was never sold on him anyway, you could tell that by the dynamic between the two and the fact that Lappi didn't feel wanted/loved, so left for Citroen. Makinen speaks about how Kalle was ahead of Lappi and Suninen in 2016 when it came to testing the Yaris on a test stage in Finland, it's clear Kalle has been earmarked to be the chosen one at Toyota long term.

Lappi hasn't improved and you could also say gone backwards in some cases since his breakthrough season. The fact Toyota didnt keep him isn't a reflection on anything rotten at the team, it's just a consequence of the driver market and Tommi liking other drivers better (Meeke short term, Kalle long term, and Tanak being the main man in the team in 2018/19).

Drivers have been treated worse at other teams you could say, Meeke at Citroen, Paddon and Mikkelsen at Hyundai etc. The WRC is cut throat for everyone who is involved, whether its drivers or team personnel.

Lappi also agreed to go to Citroen a few months before Ogier did, he knew he couldn't establish himself at Toyota with Tanak dominating (and then Kalle coming in future), and at Citroen it looked like he could move to a team who wanted him more and where he could make it his own. Doubling/ tripling his money helped too.
30th October 2019, 07:58
arx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katvala

Either way it will be an interesting season. Then, Tänak can show whether his speed is due to the car as everyone claims, or if he can manage it in the i20 too.

And if Ogier goes to Toyota we have kind of comparison too, because we know Tänak's speed relative to his team mates. Not direct apples to apples but close enaugh.
30th October 2019, 08:03
meh

Why Neuville is happy to have Tänak in Hyundai - he may have hope, that Tänak can not get used to with car (fast enough) and he can be number one in the team and main competitor against Ogier for WDC.
30th October 2019, 08:03
mknight

Quote:

Originally Posted by surdna

Estonian media said that Ogier has 1+1 with Citroën but also the contract states that if he is not continuing with Citroën he is not allowed to go to any other team. Wondering is this true because theres a lot of rumours Ogier>Toyota, but it seems he cant go even if he would like to.

That sounds like a very very clever move by Citroen when signing him last year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by er88

Lappi is hardly a clear loss for Toyota and Makinen was never sold on him anyway.

When he left in July 2018 he was way ahead of Latvala in standings and was clearly the hottest "young" name in the sport. That rest of his 2018 season was bad might be affected by him leaving.
Similarly his results in 2019 are imo not a confirmation, cause we simply don't know how he would have done in a Toyota and frankly it's hard to do worse than Latvala did in 2019. Until the engine failure in Spain Lappi was ahead of him too.

Anyway while there can be a discussion about Lappi, there can be absolutely no doubt that Tanak is (possibly) a huge loss.
30th October 2019, 08:04
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by er88

Lappi is hardly a clear loss for Toyota and Makinen was never sold on him anyway, you could tell that by the dynamic between the two and the fact that Lappi didn't feel wanted/loved, so left for Citroen. Makinen speaks about how Kalle was ahead of Lappi and Suninen in 2016 when it came to testing the Yaris on a test stage in Finland, it's clear Kalle has been earmarked to be the chosen one at Toyota long term.

Lappi hasn't improved and you could also say gone backwards in some cases since his breakthrough season. The fact Toyota didnt keep him isn't a reflection on anything rotten at the team, it's just a consequence of the driver market and Tommi liking other drivers better (Meeke short term, Kalle long term, and Tanak being the main man in the team in 2018/19).

Tommi was the one who hired Lappi back in 2016 and wanted to keep him for 2019.
30th October 2019, 08:04
racerx1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggg377

The arguments used in that post are nonsense. If employees are mass leaving a company in a short time, which explanation do you think is more likely, that all the employees collectively discovered that the salary level and cultural environment are not appealing in Estonia and Finland (the management explanation) or perhaps there is something toxic happening behind the scenes? As far as Mia, that is the problem that most insiders point to. You can't brush off Lappi's leaving like that either. His second half of 2018 was brilliant and yet he left it behind for an underperforming C3. I don't think Ogier will dive head first into that mess either. Lappi is his teammate and Tänak is his friend. He can ask TGR anything in the negotiations, because he has options and they don't. TGR had one job - keep Tänak and they bombed it.

Sounds like you know more than me!
30th October 2019, 08:09
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by surdna

Estonian media said that Ogier has 1+1 with Citroën but also the contract states that if he is not continuing with Citroën he is not allowed to go to any other team. Wondering is this true because theres a lot of rumours Ogier>Toyota, but it seems he cant go even if he would like to.

According to this Autosport article from September 2018 Ogier's contract with Citroen is 2+1 (obviously we've learned later on that the option won't be exercised).
30th October 2019, 08:16
EstWRC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Tommi was the one who hired Lappi back in 2016 and wanted to keep him for 2019.

that makes Lappis leaving even more weird then.

i remember Lappi also saying, Id like to stay but....

we will never know that but.
30th October 2019, 08:47
mknight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Tommi was the one who hired Lappi back in 2016 and wanted to keep him for 2019.

It's not like he had many options in 2016... his original team for 2017 was Hanninen who only drove one rally in 2015 and his best ever WRC result was 6th place and Lappi who was the clearly best young driver and was just about to win WRC2 over Suninen.

The options came first at the end of the year when VW left.
30th October 2019, 09:28
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by mknight

It's not like he had many options in 2016... his original team for 2017 was Hanninen who only drove one rally in 2015 and his best ever WRC result was 6th place and Lappi who was the clearly best young driver and was just about to win WRC2 over Suninen.

The options came first at the end of the year when VW left.

Ofcourse the options were limited and we never know what would have happened with Lappi if the VW trio was available earlier in 2016, but I don't think it makes any difference. Nevertheless, Mäkinen offered Lappi a deal for 2019 (if not longer) which Lappi and team Even turned down.
30th October 2019, 09:32
denkimi

Quote:

Originally Posted by meh

Why Neuville is happy to have Tänak in Hyundai - he may have hope, that Tänak can not get used to with car (fast enough) and he can be number one in the team and main competitor against Ogier for WDC.

I think neuville believes he has a better chance against tanak in the same car than he has to tanak in the toyota.

Which in itself says a lot about how he thinks about the hyundai compares to the toyota.
30th October 2019, 09:53
AnttiL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Nevertheless, Mäkinen offered Lappi a deal for 2019 (if not longer) which Lappi and team Even turned down.

This is just my own speculation, but I think they made a very low offer so they could say they offered him a seat, but it was something that no one would accept.
30th October 2019, 10:06
T16

Motorsport news also reporting Tänak has left.
30th October 2019, 10:17
sinepikohv

Quote:

Originally Posted by T16

Motorsport news also reporting Tänak has left.

Who isn't?

It's awful that instead of his and Martin's title win, the contract speculation steals the headlines. Shouldn't be like that at all.
30th October 2019, 10:21
AnttiL

Quote:

Originally Posted by T16

Motorsport news also reporting Tänak has left.

Isn't that the same media house as Autosport?
30th October 2019, 10:23
T16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnttiL

Isn't that just copying articles from Autosport?

They are the same company, so probably, yes. My point was that they haven't retracted their position on it. I guess all will be clear soon enough.
30th October 2019, 10:25
T16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinepikohv

Who isn't?

It's awful that instead of his and Martin's title win, the contract speculation steals the headlines. Shouldn't be like that at all.

To be fair, the headline is that he is champion and that he has quit Toyota. You can't expect them not to mention it.... it's a pretty important thing.
30th October 2019, 10:29
sinepikohv

The headlines in Estonia: Tänak leaves, Grönholm says this and that etc. Of course, it's important and I get why this story is running on such high levels but it's not more important as them winning the title.
30th October 2019, 10:33
EstWRC

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinepikohv

Who isn't?

It's awful that instead of his and Martin's title win, the contract speculation steals the headlines. Shouldn't be like that at all.

agreed

yes its quite sad actually :(
30th October 2019, 11:22
T16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinepikohv

The headlines in Estonia: Tänak leaves, Grönholm says this and that etc. Of course, it's important and I get why this story is running on such high levels but it's not more important as them winning the title.

They've simply reported it, as major news. There's no inference on their part that it's more important than the title. The title headline comes first. I guess it comes down to your interpretation of the headline.
Maybe Tanak is to blame?
30th October 2019, 12:10
ggg377

https://sport.delfi.ee/news/auto/wrc...le?id=87919397

Quote:

30.10.2019, 12:38
World champion Ott Tänak: I am an ordinary father who is dedicated to driving a Toyota

Fresh world champion of rally Ott Tänak has given an interview to the Spanish publication Marca. Journalist Nacho Villarin asked Tänak to describe himself. "I am an ordinary father who is dedicated to driving a Toyota. I am not the best person to describe myself," said Tänak. Of course he was asked about his employment in the coming season. "Most likely the solution will come in the next two weeks. Before Rally Australia it should be clear," declared the fresh world champion who has been tied to Hyundai by many publications. One topic was Tänak's popularity in Estonia. "Estonia is a small country. Everyone knows everyone. I don't feel like a star. Of course many Estonians follow rally, but I focus on my work. I'm not a hero. Of course it's interesting that an Estonian is the world champion of rally. Regardless, we have sportsmen who won in the Olympics and in much bigger sports disciplines," said Tänak while downplaying his achievement. The Spanish journalist inquired about his relationship with Dani Sordo. If the rumors are true, then Tänak and Sordo will be teammates in Hyundai. Tänak gave a quirky hint about Sordo. "I always liked him. He is one of the pilots I would like to collaborate with," admitted Tänak, how already requested last year for Sordo to be his teammate in Toyota. "He did excellent work when he was driving in Citroen. He has continued this in Hyundai. He has a lot of experience and he is friendly to everyone. I can't rule out the possibility that we will be teammates in the future."

His self-description is also interesting. It looks like they might be delaying the announcement even more. I can't take it anymore :D
30th October 2019, 13:07
T16

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...er-tanak-moves
30th October 2019, 13:39
ggg377

Mäkinen says Tänak's possible move to Hyundai "damn annoying", no plan B, interested in Ogier

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/...-juttu/7607176
30th October 2019, 14:14
BobJones

Quote:

Originally Posted by surdna

Estonian media said that Ogier has 1+1 with Citroën but also the contract states that if he is not continuing with Citroën he is not allowed to go to any other team. Wondering is this true because theres a lot of rumours Ogier>Toyota, but it seems he cant go even if he would like to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira

Autosport.pt said the same. Clause anti-rivals.

I'm not saying this will happen or it's possible with this particular contract, but he could retire on December 30th and un-retire in January. Something similar happened in car racing a few years back, V8 Supercars, when one driver wanted to switch teams even though he was contracted for next season already.
30th October 2019, 14:54
sinepikohv

Quote:

Originally Posted by T16

They've simply reported it, as major news. There's no inference on their part that it's more important than the title. The title headline comes first. I guess it comes down to your interpretation of the headline.
Maybe Tanak is to blame?

I'm from Estonia and the news are 95% (okay, maybe a bit less but not a lot) focused on the contract. I know it's major news and it interests me as well but I just thought that the title win would change the main theme in the media. It was like that on Sunday afternoon but already from Monday morning the contract dispute or whatever became the main news like that. I just don't like the behaviour, that's all :)
30th October 2019, 15:08
T16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinepikohv

I'm from Estonia and the news are 95% (okay, maybe a bit less but not a lot) focused on the contract. I know it's major news and it interests me as well but I just thought that the title win would change the main theme in the media. It was like that on Sunday afternoon but already from Monday morning the contract dispute or whatever became the main news like that. I just don't like the behaviour, that's all :)

Ah, I thought you were on about the article i referred to!
Either way, it’s all major news.
Congrats on your champion then, you must be very happy!
Might be a long time before we can toast one from the UK!
30th October 2019, 15:57
meh

I think we should watch "contract news" and "title news" as one topic. One is fuel to another. There are a lot of drivers who probably have their contract negotiations in progress but no one put the main focus there till No 1 Driver does not have contract in place. It's all normal. We are all waiting, we are audience and they produce news/"news" for us.
30th October 2019, 18:01
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnttiL

This is just my own speculation, but I think they made a very low offer so they could say they offered him a seat, but it was something that no one would accept.

Could be. Lappi himself said that "Citroen really wanted me" which could mean that it was a low-ball offer from Tommi.
30th October 2019, 18:51
EstWRC

BREAKING NEWS!!! -> Seb Ogier will also join HyundaiWRC# team in 2020 so it will be fair fight and fair competition to find out who is the best amongst BIG3, once for all
30th October 2019, 19:16
denkimi

Quote:

Originally Posted by EstWRC

BREAKING NEWS!!! -> Seb Ogier will also join HyundaiWRC# team in 2020 so it will be fair fight and fair competition to find out who is the best amongst BIG3, once for all

That would be a bombshell. :p

No doubt if it was up to adamo alone this would be the case.
30th October 2019, 19:39
AnttiL

Quote:

Originally Posted by denkimi

That would be a bombshell. :p

No doubt if it was up to adamo alone this would be the case.

sshhh, don't give him any ideas...
30th October 2019, 19:39
EstWRC

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIJp1iWW...jpg&name=large
30th October 2019, 19:53
Allez Andruet

Just wondering, why would Ogier want to jump from Citroen to Toyota? Based on the stories we've heard during the past few days, Seb would have to spend half of his season (his last season ever) telling the two TGR bosses to mind their own business. I bet he'll have much more friendly environment at Citroen.
30th October 2019, 20:16
ggg377

Quote:

Originally Posted by EstWRC

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIJp1iWW...jpg&name=large

Delete this :D
30th October 2019, 20:23
ggg377

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Just wondering, why would Ogier want to jump from Citroen to Toyota? Based on the stories we've heard during the past few days, Seb would have to spend half of his season (his last season ever) telling the two TGR bosses to mind their own business. I bet he'll have much more friendly environment at Citroen.

I agree. I love the Ott + Toyota combination and I dread the day the Hyundai announcement is made public, but the thought of Ott losing another title to reliability issues is also very scary. Toyota might have the aesthetic and the speed (especially with Ott), but it's far from perfect.
30th October 2019, 20:29
AnttiL

Quote:

Originally Posted by EstWRC

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIJp1iWW...jpg&name=large

You need to start printing rallydriver paper dolls. You can then try how different coveralls fit :D

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:51.