Team orders at Ferrari

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

It IS Ferrari's right to act in their rational self-interest because that is any entities right. They did not impinge in any way upon anyone else's right because that would of course automatically negate their own.

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And yet again you let facts get in the way of your argument. Go back about 30 pages and you might potentially come across your earlier discussion of right vs privilige. There are a number of ways to argue this point in Ferrari's favour this is NOT one of them has never BEEN one of them and will CONTINUE to fail when used as a crutch to say that Ferrari can do what they want on the racetrack.........they are an entity which SIGNED UP to compete in F1 under the present rules, if they don't like them they have no inalienable 'right' to do what they please because of natural justice of any other such nonsense attempted legal argument you throw up, one cannot pick oneself up by their bootlaces

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Rubens Barrichello is also known in Brazil as "Pedi-Chanello" someone that plods along in slow footed way.

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I have never heard this and do not believe you. Rubens is rightly highly respected in Brazil and adored by his fans.

Perhaps you may like to provide some proof? I tried to do it for you by typing "pedi-chanello", "pedi chanello" and "pedi chanello rubens" into Google and guess what I found?

You may be surprised to hear that the only reference to Rubens as "Pedi Chanello" was by some idiot on a forum. Guess which forum it was?

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Originally Posted by skc

I have never heard this and do not believe you. Rubens is rightly highly respected in Brazil and adored by his fans.

Perhaps you may like to provide some proof? I tried to do it for you by typing "pedi-chanello", "pedi chanello" and "pedi chanello rubens" into Google and guess what I found?

You may be surprised to hear that the only reference to Rubens as "Pedi Chanello" was by some idiot on a forum. Guess which forum it was?

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You'll find it in the Golders Green Weakly. :p : :D :rotflmao:

A question about Germany 2008 - sorry if that has already been debated, but I haven't seen it. Why does everybody consider that Ferrari wanted Alonso though just to maximise his chances of winning the WDC?

I seem to remember that at that time, Vettel was closing on the two Ferraris -or at least, he was lapping faster than them-, so what if the only reason for Ferrari to let Alonso through was to ensure that they could win the race? If Vettel overtook Alonso first, Massa would be right there, but if Alonso could have got in front of his teammate, Vettel would still have to close on Alonso before overtaking him.

Oh, and just another thing: I've read lots of messages in other forums in which Alonso was harshly criticised because of this manoeuvre, but how much of the fault does really lie on him? There are his radio transmissions, but I truly doubt that it was this which caused Ferrari to order Felipe to let him through.

Greetings from Gran Canaria :) .

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Bernie is a greedy schmuck

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You know nothing about him and your comment is disgusting.

What have you done with your life? Bernie has built a worldwide sport only smaller than world cup soccer and the Summer Olympics that you take advantage of by watching.

:mad:

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

You know nothing about him and your comment is disgusting.

What have you done with your life? Bernie has built a worldwide sport only smaller than world cup soccer and the Summer Olympics that you take advantage of by watching.

:mad:

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Bernie is greedy and disgusting.

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Originally Posted by skc

I have never heard this and do not believe you. Rubens is rightly highly respected in Brazil and adored by his fans.

Perhaps you may like to provide some proof? I tried to do it for you by typing "pedi-chanello", "pedi chanello" and "pedi chanello rubens" into Google and guess what I found?

You may be surprised to hear that the only reference to Rubens as "Pedi Chanello" was by some idiot on a forum. Guess which forum it was?

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:rolleyes: First of all his fans are not going to call him that are they now? But he is called that in Brazil.

Secondly - I think you may have some moderator trouble coming your way because you have SO broken the rules.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Bernie is greedy and disgusting.

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You are just so envious of him ......

I consider this justification and evidence that Ferrari have used sound judgment in managing its races. And as it is posted on this forum quite often:
"You can't argue with results"

This is no accident (no pun intended) and it is also not cheating. Ferrari has had plenty of problems, but finishing races is not one.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...-in-10-report/

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The F10, driven by Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa, has completed a remarkable 1471 of the possible 1474 laps throughout the 12 races so far.

That is 98 laps more than the Red Bull drivers.

Mercedes is the only other team fielding drivers that have not retired due to accidents in 2010.

In contrast, Red Bull has recorded one failure and two driver crashes, while McLaren has had two technical failures and one accident retirement.

Renault has the worst reliability of the top teams, with four technical retirements and two crashes.

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Originally Posted by N4D13

A question about Germany 2008 - sorry if that has already been debated, but I haven't seen it. Why does everybody consider that Ferrari wanted Alonso though just to maximise his chances of winning the WDC?

I seem to remember that at that time, Vettel was closing on the two Ferraris -or at least, he was lapping faster than them-, so what if the only reason for Ferrari to let Alonso through was to ensure that they could win the race? If Vettel overtook Alonso first, Massa would be right there, but if Alonso could have got in front of his teammate, Vettel would still have to close on Alonso before overtaking him.

Oh, and just another thing: I've read lots of messages in other forums in which Alonso was harshly criticised because of this manoeuvre, but how much of the fault does really lie on him? There are his radio transmissions, but I truly doubt that it was this which caused Ferrari to order Felipe to let him through.

Greetings from Gran Canaria :) .

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These days there are the people that have been brainwashed in a politically correct and socialist type world - ignore them - Alonso does.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

:rolleyes: First of all his fans are not going to call him that are they now? But he is called that in Brazil.

Secondly - I think you may have some moderator trouble coming your way because you have SO broken the rules.

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what was that you posted in the other thread about running to the teacher?

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Originally Posted by henners88

I was thinking he sounds like a guy who was banned in the same week as this poster joined the boards. Come to think of it, that banned poster did used to use Italian phrases in their posts from time to time, and was named after a corner on an Italian racing circuit lol. Only joking. :p

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Do you have any intention of adding to the debate, which you appear to very rarely do, or is it just your intention to be unwelcoming and unpleasant?

If it is the latter, please PM your issues me so I can report you to the moderators, thank you.

If it is the former, please step away from the keyboard, grazie mille.

I am not interested in what is an apparently an unpleasant attitude towards me.

Other than disagree with your opinion on the Ferrari at Hockenheim debate, I have done nothing to deserve this attitude from you.

Per favore, in the future keep to the topic. Grazie.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Happy? No. Used to it from you? Yes.

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What?

There is no need to be rude.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

There is no need to be rude.

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I apologise if the assumption which prompted my comment is incorrect, but this thread does appear to be following a very familiar pattern.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

:rolleyes: First of all his fans are not going to call him that are they now? But he is called that in Brazil.

Secondly - I think you may have some moderator trouble coming your way because you have SO broken the rules.

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I doubt it will do any good but I will answer your post.



I stated that I did not believe you that Rubens is known as Pedi-Chanello in Brazil. I have never heard that name before and the only reference to it on Google happens to be entries you have submitted on this forum. I don't know if you are trying to slander Rubens with a downright lie but there seems to be nothing whatsoever backing up your claim. It may be that some back-street journalist with less credibility than yourself has made a claim in a tittle-tattle rag somewhere but not even that comes up. So, in short, I do not believe you.

Now, it may be correct that you are allowed to insult drivers, call other members disgusting, troll, submit lies, promote violence and bring down the quality of the forum with your posts without any recourse from the moderators. We do in this country, unlike some other states, defend free speech and non-discriminatory practices which you may or may not be as familiar with you. However, with these rights comes a responsibility to exercise them appropriately. If you cannot behave in a civilized manner, if you lie and if you consistently change your mind to suit each individual argument, you cannot meaningfully and positively contribute to a forum, can you?

I will not get into a personal dispute with you. A public forum is no place for childish quarrel and I have better things to do with my time than waste it on someone with your qualities. But, I maintain, it is my considered opinion, taking your behaviour on this forum into account, that you are, indeed, an idiot. That is not an insult, and I am not accusing you of being an idiot. I just suggest that it is my opinion that you are and fully appreciate you have an opinion on me which I respect 100%.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

You are just so envious of him ......

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You must be joking. I look young, he looks old and haggard. Besides he is a disgusting greedy person. Why would I envy that?

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

:rolleyes: First of all his fans are not going to call him that are they now? But he is called that in Brazil.

.

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The things you learn from the Golders Green Weakly. :D

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Originally Posted by skc

I I will not get into a personal dispute with you. A public forum is no place for childish quarrel and I have better things to do with my time than waste it on someone with your qualities.

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I wouldn't bother at all really, we have seen that St Devote doesn't respond to reason, ignores anything that doesn't fit into his view of the world (and states as such earlier on this very page - or was I reading into his post too far, was my understanding too much in line w/ how the stewards interpreted the situation regarding Ferrari) and chooses to ignore rationale debate and attack the poster rather than the post.

Given we will end up w/ a new thread come decision day at the WMC all I can see is this thread descend into a slanging match...... i'd say close it but that would be to deny natural justice :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

There is a tendency here to try and make trouble for others. What is the objective?

So what even if it is the same person? Do you like to see people banned that you may or may not agree with or do y'all that think it is the same person want the new name to be banned?

At school were you the guys that would tattle tale to teacher?

You can disagree with someone, but being mean and "telling teacher" is just despicable.

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I refer you to the reply given in Arkell v Pressdram

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

please step away from the keyboard, grazie mille.

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What if he's sitting down? Surely, push back in your chair (the assumption is that most computer workstation seating furniture is mounted on castors) away from your internet connected computer (in case he is using a MAC or even an iPad with on-screen touchpad :eek :) would be better?

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

I am not interested in what is an apparently an unpleasant attitude towards me.

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Why bother with a reply then? :confused:

I haven't missed much then?! :eek:

The same few posters who can't (or won't) understand that Ferrari putting their own interests first doesn't give them carte blanche to ignore the rules, and who then result to insulting and filibustering when they can't put together a rational argument.

Plus ca change...

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Why bother with a reply then? :confused:

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Please stop being rude and intolerant, per favore.

You have been aggresive, insulting and unpleasant to me since I became a member of the forum.

You have been banned as a direct result of this, so, per favore, stop.

Nothing I have done deserves this attitude. If you do not agree with me on subjects, try to remain polite.

It is not much to ask, no?

Grazie mille.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I apologise if the assumption which prompted my comment is incorrect, but this thread does appear to be following a very familiar pattern.

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Scusi, Per favore.

I do not know why you have a problem with me.

I am only showing that to judge without proof is unfair.

I think this we both agree with, no?

I have not been rude to you. I have asked only a question, so please also be polite and tolerant.

Grazie mille.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

You have no regard for European motor racing tradition?

Team orders have been a round since racing began and all teams have used them and want to use them and drivers from Fangio down have benefited.

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Spare me your high and mighty approach of disregarding current rules due to history. History and tradition have been proven wrong many times over. Allowing team orders isn't a bad idea IMHO, but there is no sense in calling the WDC and individual title if it is not.

But if you had actually read my posts rather than cherry picking a statement to dispute, you would already know that. Having read yours I understand that your viewpoint changes day to day to suit your favorite drivers, and has no regard for the current rules that govern the sport.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

what was that you posted in the other thread about running to the teacher?

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This is different.

I cannot retaliate because that means I am breaking the rules and I can get banned.

You must learn how to distinguish these things otherwise you end up like a liberal - where wrong and right is relative rather than absolute.

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Originally Posted by N4D13

Oh, and just another thing: I've read lots of messages in other forums in which Alonso was harshly criticised because of this manoeuvre, but how much of the fault does really lie on him? There are his radio transmissions, but I truly doubt that it was this which caused Ferrari to order Felipe to let him through.

Greetings from Gran Canaria :) .

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As much as I think Alonso desired the result he got, the team made the decision and Alonso shouldn't be accountable for it.

I would have much rather the team and Alonso stayed in focus of the current rules regarding the sport. When Alonso whined that "this is ridiculous" over the radio the team should have reminded him that being the faster driver he should have qualified ahead of Felipe, or been able to pass him on the track. :D


BTW, welcome to the forums.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Do you have any intention of adding to the debate, which you appear to very rarely do, or is it just your intention to be unwelcoming and unpleasant?

If it is the latter, please PM your issues me so I can report you to the moderators, thank you.

If it is the former, please step away from the keyboard, grazie mille.

I am not interested in what is an apparently an unpleasant attitude towards me.

Other than disagree with your opinion on the Ferrari at Hockenheim debate, I have done nothing to deserve this attitude from you.

Per favore, in the future keep to the topic. Grazie.

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Oh boy - you are just now learning what these people can be like ........

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Originally Posted by airshifter

As much as I think Alonso desired the result he got, the team made the decision and Alonso shouldn't be accountable for it.

I would have much rather the team and Alonso stayed in focus of the current rules regarding the sport. When Alonso whined that "this is ridiculous" over the radio the team should have reminded him that being the faster driver he should have qualified ahead of Felipe, or been able to pass him on the track. :D


BTW, welcome to the forums.

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Alonso did qualify ahead of Massa but because Vettel dived to the right to try and block Webber they were held up and Massa had a clear run to the front

Secondly what is the point in fighting to overtake one's teammate for nothing when one is clearly quicker and the risk for collision is very high?

Overtaking in f1 is impossible or difficult enough as it is and Alonso and Massa fighting could have ended up like RBR did in Turkey.

The Ferrari drivers are not Hamilton and Button where they give each other room - and if you recall even with them the prat perch stepped in and told them to "hold station".

This is f1 and it is the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

This is different.

I cannot retaliate because that means I am breaking the rules and I can get banned.

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Budha should be so kind to me. :(

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Scusi, Per favore.

I do not know why you have a problem with me.

I am only showing that to judge without proof is unfair.

I think this we both agree with, no?

Grazie mille.

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I must say that I agree with this guy's right to voice his opinion. While we may not agree with his sentiments, he does have a right to his views. As one of my greatest regrets in life that I never studied law, especially criminal law, I could very easily take his stand if Ferrari was my favorite team. In fact, I'm awaiting the WMSC hearing with great interest because of this.
Just let me digress a little, my idol is Robert Richter : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...r_%28lawyer%29,
without people like him, our judicial system would not survive. Sorry for going completely off topic, but I just want to explain where I stand on this.

The law is one thing and justice is another .......

The FIA are going to rule over Hockenheim? Not likely.

They are going find some sort of accommodation because they know that being policeman, judge and jury in the kangaroo court of the FIA is not justice but a self-granted power trying to undermine the rights of a team - in this case Ferrari.

And anyone believing that between Hockenheim and Sep 8, just prior to the Italian Grand Prix and, that Bernie and Todt will allow anything to happen to Ferrari AT ALL - no.

This case is over. Let justice prevail - change the unjust rule and let the teams be free to race in f1 according to the way it has always been and MUST be in f1.

Forza Ferrari! Viva El Nano!!

[quote="Valve Bounce"]I As one of my greatest regrets in life that I never studied law, especially criminal law, I could very easily take his stand if Ferrari was my favorite team. In fact, I'm awaiting the WMSC hearing with great interest because of this.QUOTE]

The law is not all it is cracked up to be (reason enough to move onto medicine at the completion of legal studies) but whether we see a decision from the WMSC which is in line w/ expected legal doctrine will be interesting. Couple of major points being the fact this is a private entity who can act under their own governance except where this infringes existing legal rights (most notably those of the competitors under any contractual agreement to compete) or where such action is in conflict w/ the Constitution of the FIA.

Will definitely be an interesting case to read the findings of though

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

The law is one thing and justice is another .......

Let justice prevail - change the unjust rule and let the teams be free to race in f1 according to the way it has always been and MUST be in f1.

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You have a very confused sense of natural justice is what i'm thinking then.......

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Forza Ferrari! Viva El Nano!!

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:s ailor: + :s ailor: = :s ailor: :s ailor:....... :bounce: