2008 Rally Argentina - official thread

I don't remember being bothered about this sort of thing when I was getting into rallying in the early 1980s, because almost everything used to be spectacular to watch due to being 2wd, while the Quattro was impressive and could be driven spectacularly.

Surely Loeb must be doing something right given his results? I agree that he is unspectacular, but so what? He is 'merely' doing the best job he can in the current type of equipment. When the nature of that equipment changes, he may have to alter his style.

The idea that those of us who want to see cars looking more like they're being pushed hard than is currently the case want to see more accidents is really absurd. To me, the sight of today's WRCs looking like they're running on rails just isn't impressive and doesn't make for good sport either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

I like sidways as much as most others. But I don't see the point in sideways for the sake of sideways. The only reason Sebastien isn't crazy sideways all the time is that with the way the current cars are it's simply not the fast way through the stage.

---

What has not been said is that it is not required to attack corners sideways when you have already driven the stage a number of times and made copious notes.

Secondly, just how many cars in top level rallying are rear wheel drive. The Quattro came into being only 26(?) years ago and the 4WD rally cars took quite a while to become what they are today.

Years ago the rally route was secret. Route instructions were not handed out until just before the start. Having the car unbalanced as you approached the corner allowed a bit of a safety margin. Change of direction was a lot easier using both steering input and throttle control. Unfortunately the down side was that locals had a advantage and being secret did throw up the safety factor in that you did not know what was around the corner.

Yes the Citroen is probably the best car out there, Seb has mastered it, however when someone manages to push him, he does make mistakes. Last year the Focus was the best car for most of the year until the C4 was fully developed. This year I believe they are still very close, just the drivers are not as good.

Latvala is still learning and unfortunately I don't think Miko is a number 1 driver yet. I would love to see Petter, Atko and Latvala all in the C4 to see just how close they are to Seb. Give them a few rallies in it before making judgement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't remember being bothered about this sort of thing when I was getting into rallying in the early 1980s, because almost everything used to be spectacular to watch due to being 2wd, while the Quattro was impressive and could be driven spectacularly.

Surely Loeb must be doing something right given his results? I agree that he is unspectacular, but so what? He is 'merely' doing the best job he can in the current type of equipment. When the nature of that equipment changes, he may have to alter his style.

The idea that those of us who want to see cars looking more like they're being pushed hard than is currently the case want to see more accidents is really absurd. To me, the sight of today's WRCs looking like they're running on rails just isn't impressive and doesn't make for good sport either.

---

I think the point that was made with accidents was a valid one. If as Loeb said it was dangerous then perhaps we should respect the opinion of someone as experienced as him and think that perhaps not cutting the tyres just makes things more dangerous and just makes for slower rallying.

As I say all the time something needs to be done to make the cars worth driving sideways in terms of results. If it's quickest to drive straight it'll be driven straight..... I don't think many will disagree with this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by malscar

What has not been said is that it is not required to attack corners sideways when you have already driven the stage a number of times and made copious notes.

Years ago the rally route was secret. Route instructions were not handed out until just before the start. Having the car unbalanced as you approached the corner allowed a bit of a safety margin. Change of direction was a lot easier using both steering input and throttle control. Unfortunately the down side was that locals had a advantage and being secret did throw up the safety factor in that you did not know what was around the corner.

---

True. Not bad ideas it has to be said....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Helstar brings up a great point.

There should be changes if spectators are left yawning and "hardcore" rally fans begin to roll their eyes. Example? Predicatble results at just about every event and silly rules (Super Rally) that make things discombobulated.

---

How predictable is it really? Are you that good at pickems? OK, Loeb usually wins, but 2nd position down is usually pretty unpredictable, and nobody predicted what happened in Argentina. Can you predict for me the winner of Rally Finland? Will Loeb finally win there? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

most people are very skilled drivers and aren't idiots but on rare occasions one might by chance see an unskilled idiot who I MUST stress is not the norm on the type of event driving stupidly sideways.

---

Rossi at Rally NZ '06 was stupidly sideways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cosmicpanda

How predictable is it really? Are you that good at pickems? OK, Loeb usually wins, but 2nd position down is usually pretty unpredictable, and nobody predicted what happened in Argentina. Can you predict for me the winner of Rally Finland? Will Loeb finally win there? :)



Rossi at Rally NZ '06 was stupidly sideways.

---

Just make sure you point out the fact that he's not stupidly sideways when on a bike. Don't want the perfect statement police on your back now ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cosmicpanda

Can you predict for me the winner of Rally Finland? Will Loeb finally win there? :)

---

no, but also no.

I can't believe I have to ask this here, but since offically nothing was published, here goes; does anyone know reasons for retirements of H. Solberg, L. Perez Companc & T. Gardemeister on 2008 Rally Argentina? (Yes, the one that finished less than a week ago).

Thank you.

henning broke the suspension twice in two different days, in the same front right wheel, so he had to stop in the stage, not far from where his brother also retired.

toni has some kind of hydraulic pressure, not sure.

companc went off the road, not sure where.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

Of course BUT it's not Sebastien's fault that there seem to be no drivers that can really compete with him since Gronholm's retirement? Is it his fault that Citroen seem to prepare the best cars for just about each event? StupidRally is dumb. But this has nothing to do with Sebastien.

---

No, I'm not blaming Seb for being an outstanding driver. His skill is just on a completely different level than the rest of the drivers. I guess my post was more of a complaint because the course of WRC is frustrating me at the moment.

I also cannot predict what will happen in future since my crystal ball is out of commission. All I can do is hope that Max steps down and someone is placed in the FIA who will change the WRC for the better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaps

I can't believe I have to ask this here, but since offically nothing was published, here goes; does anyone know reasons for retirements of H. Solberg, L. Perez Companc & T. Gardemeister on 2008 Rally Argentina? (Yes, the one that finished less than a week ago).

Thank you.

---

Watch the videos on wrc.com and atleast you'Il find out what hapend to Henning

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

No, I'm not blaming Seb for being an outstanding driver. His skill is just on a completely different level than the rest of the drivers. I guess my post was more of a complaint because the course of WRC is frustrating me at the moment.

I also cannot predict what will happen in future since my crystal ball is out of commission. All I can do is hope that Max steps down and someone is placed in the FIA who will change the WRC for the better.

---

Talking of Max and the FIA, have any of the teams made any comments regarding his position? If not, I presume they don't have a problem with him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

Talking of Max and the FIA, have any of the teams made any comments regarding his position? If not, I presume they don't have a problem with him.

---

I dont think any of the WRC teams or wrc commission are brave enough or stupid enough to comment on Max. See what he is capable of http://www.sportspromedia.com/mosley.htm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

Talking of Max and the FIA, have any of the teams made any comments regarding his position? If not, I presume they don't have a problem with him.

---

Four of the F1 teams have according to Norwegian media atleast, and they were in discrace of what he had done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

No, I'm not blaming Seb for being an outstanding driver. His skill is just on a completely different level than the rest of the drivers. I guess my post was more of a complaint because the course of WRC is frustrating me at the moment.

I also cannot predict what will happen in future since my crystal ball is out of commission. All I can do is hope that Max steps down and someone is placed in the FIA who will change the WRC for the better.

---

You agree that you cannot predict the future, and therefore the WRC must be unpredictable, no?

Perhaps the idea of how to change the WRC for the better needs (yet) another thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

Just make sure you point out the fact that he's not stupidly sideways when on a bike. Don't want the perfect statement police on your back now ;)

---

But Rossi wasn't on a bike :p

True but you don't want to insult anyone who might not understand your post properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

True but you don't want to insult anyone who might not understand your post properly.

---

your statement said, with no qualifiers, if you want to see talentless idiots go to local events.

If you had any balls at all you would concede that it was a thoughtless statement, particularly when you are, as far as I can tell, a mere fan-boy Inter-net guy ( Danie Status: Online Posts: 26,758) and no sort of competitor.

Instead you act like an immature prat.

Nobody expects perfection here, but when its pointed out that you intentionally or not, insulted tens of thousands of club level competitors, and that includes ME, just to make a point, a simpler solution to your speaking before thinking would have been to say, Oh sh1t, sorry, no offense to everybody in the club rally scene.."

But no, you continue to make silly references to your thoughtless statements.

What a obnoxious punk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

your statement said, with no qualifiers, if you want to see talentless idiots go to local events.

If you had any balls at all you would concede that it was a thoughtless statement, particularly when you are, as far as I can tell, a mere fan-boy Inter-net guy ( Danie Status: Online Posts: 26,758) and no sort of competitor.

Instead you act like an immature prat.

Nobody expects perfection here, but when its pointed out that you intentionally or not, insulted tens of thousands of club level competitors, and that includes ME, just to make a point, a simpler solution to your speaking before thinking would have been to say, Oh sh1t, sorry, no offense to everybody in the club rally scene.."

But no, you continue to make silly references to your thoughtless statements.

What a obnoxious punk.

---

This isn't about guts. It's about not seeing things which aren't there.

If I said "If you want to see corrupt tosspots go to capitol hill" you wouldn't be having such a big hissy fit. The fact of the matter is there are corrupt politicians so the above statement is correct and isn't all encompassing. The fact of the matter is that there are talentless idiots at club level and higher for the matter and there are some really good drivers. I was merely pointing out that turning up to a low level event is generally going to satisfy your appetite for seeing someone going stupidly sideways more than turning up to a WRC event will.

I really don't care if tens of thousands of club level competitors are insulted. If they are insulted by what someone by what someone with 26,759 posts on an internet forum says then they need to find a new hobby and practice it in private. May I suggest cross stitch and not getting Rupert Murdoch angry as two hobbies which will be easy and not involve actually being insulted?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tmx

henning broke the suspension twice in two different days, in the same front right wheel, so he had to stop in the stage, not far from where his brother also retired.

toni has some kind of hydraulic pressure, not sure.

companc went off the road, not sure where.

---

Thanks tmx!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cosmicpanda

You agree that you cannot predict the future, and therefore the WRC must be unpredictable, no?

---

I may sound as if I'm contradicting myself, but I think Argentina was a one-off. Rally Jordan might be more of what we expected in the results category.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

I may sound as if I'm contradicting myself, but I think Argentina was a one-off. Rally Jordan might be more of what we expected in the results category.

---

Which is what, precisely? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

This isn't about guts. It's about not seeing things which aren't there.

If I said "If you want to see corrupt tosspots go to capitol hill" you wouldn't be having such a big hissy fit. The fact of the matter is there are corrupt politicians so the above statement is correct and isn't all encompassing. The fact of the matter is that there are talentless idiots at club level and higher for the matter and there are some really good drivers. I was merely pointing out that turning up to a low level event is generally going to satisfy your appetite for seeing someone going stupidly sideways more than turning up to a WRC event will.

I really don't care if tens of thousands of club level competitors are insulted. If they are insulted by what someone by what someone with 26,759 posts on an internet forum says then they need to find a new hobby and practice it in private. May I suggest cross stitch and not getting Rupert Murdoch angry as two hobbies which will be easy and not involve actually being insulted?

---

I say this as an observer with no vested interest in this argument:

Daniel, sometimes it’s better to apologize and admit that you were wrong instead of incessantly trying to justify your point and therefore making it worse. Yes Daniel - even you can be in the wrong at times...

Daniel when you are already in a hole, stop digging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

The fact of the matter is that there are talentless idiots at club level and higher ...

---

No there aren't. There are competitors with varying degrees of experience and ability ... as there are in any sport. Many will actually admit to being 'learners' or to just having fun without great expectations.
To describe them in the manner that you have actually tells us more about you than it does about those to whom you're referring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

I really don't care if tens of thousands of club level competitors are insulted.

---

I think we've all learnt over the years that, where you're concerned, this goes without saying. Why it is that you, who has no involvement in the sport, continually feels the need to insult those who do is beyond comprehension.

I'm with Janvanvurpa here. His description of you is insightful, accurate, spot on. A display of exquisite character judgement. I could not have chosen more apt words myself.

World vs Daniel :\
Poor Daniel he doesn't deserve all of this. He is not Loeb himself xD only a 'two eyed' fan who just sees the french BB as 'the unique and real rally driver of all time' (past present and future lol).

But anyway it's true that sometimes he gets over the limit, I remember one time he claimed to be the right one in a discussion against....Pentti ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

This isn't about guts. It's about not seeing things which aren't there.

If I said "If you want to see corrupt tosspots go to capitol hill" you wouldn't be having such a big hissy fit. The fact of the matter is there are corrupt politicians so the above statement is correct and isn't all encompassing. The fact of the matter is that there are talentless idiots at club level and higher for the matter and there are some really good drivers. I was merely pointing out that turning up to a low level event is generally going to satisfy your appetite for seeing someone going stupidly sideways more than turning up to a WRC event will.

I really don't care if tens of thousands of club level competitors are insulted. If they are insulted by what someone by what someone with 26,759 posts on an internet forum says then they need to find a new hobby and practice it in private. May I suggest cross stitch and not getting Rupert Murdoch angry as two hobbies which will be easy and not involve actually being insulted?

---

I was going to stay out of this, but really, the last paragraph was too much.

Get a grip. Maybe you should respect the fact that the sport of rally, more so than any other form of motorsport in the world, is supported by, built on, and dependent on the club level competitor. If you don't care what club level competitors think, what they do, or if you blatantly disregard and offend them then perhaps it is time for you to get off your "high and mighty keyboard" and get truly involved in the sport.

To not even understand how what you might have said was wrong and in bad taste reflects immensely and poorly on you and your character.

Perhaps, as the saying goes, you can't see the forest for the trees....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by duff

I say this as an observer with no vested interest in this argument:

Daniel, sometimes it’s better to apologize and admit that you were wrong instead of incessantly trying to justify your point and therefore making it worse. Yes Daniel - even you can be in the wrong at times...

---

Thing is if I'd said that all people involved in club rallying were talentless idiots I'd be the first to say "whoops! that was a dumb thing to say!" but I didn't. I myself have friends who have competed at a club level for years and I've been part of their service crew. I'd happily service for my friend again if he was still competing and I lived in the same country as him but sadly neither of those is true. I wonder how many people on the WRC forum and in particular people around my age have had any level of involvement past spectating at events? Does that fact that I have had some involvement make me better or more able to comprehend English than them? Not really. I respect people who rally at a club level. I was just pointing out that if you go to a club rally with over 100 competitiors you will see a few talentless people who want nothing more than to go sideways. If that's their goal then that's great and I wish them the best in going as sideways as they like. But that doesn't change the fact that they're not all that skillful and that they'll satisfy your urge for stupidly sideways action moreso than seeing Sebastien or someone similarly skilled in a top car which doesn't reward especially sideways driving.

What's happened here is classic misinterpretation. I've done it myself a few times too. Read what I wanted to read in someone's post and then shot my mouth off. We all have at some point in the past. But as soon as the person says "that's not what I said/meant" I accept that I'm in the wrong (as JanVan and Solitt are here) and apologise.

As a sidenote if I was having this argument with my girlfriend I'd happily apologise for a misunderstanding because I love her and value her opinions and one silly argument is nothing to break up over. Just for the record neither JanVan or Solitt are my girlfriend so their apology might be a while forthcoming.......

:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L5->R5/CR

I was going to stay out of this, but really, the last paragraph was too much.

Get a grip. Maybe you should respect the fact that the sport of rally, more so than any other form of motorsport in the world, is supported by, built on, and dependent on the club level competitor. If you don't care what club level competitors think, what they do, or if you blatantly disregard and offend them then perhaps it is time for you to get off your "high and mighty keyboard" and get truly involved in the sport.

To not even understand how what you might have said was wrong and in bad taste reflects immensely and poorly on you and your character.

Perhaps, as the saying goes, you can't see the forest for the trees....

---

Thing is.... if I replied to you now saying you've offended the name of Portugal with a comment that doesn't actually mean what I claim it does then would you "care" about it considering the fact that I'm the one making it an insult and not you? If people want to interpret things that's fine. But you have to understand that the person who said them or typed them had their own intentions for those words and you have to accept that and not force them to admit to saying something that you want them to have said.

Everyone's entitled to opinion - whether you agree with it is up to you. No one should have to apologise if they dont feel they have to.

Personally I dont agree with what Daniel is saying but I will sure as hell defend his right to say it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

Thing is.... if I replied to you now saying you've offended the name of Portugal with a comment that doesn't actually mean what I claim it does then would you "care" about it considering the fact that I'm the one making it an insult and not you? If people want to interpret things that's fine. But you have to understand that the person who said them or typed them had their own intentions for those words and you have to accept that and not force them to admit to saying something that you want them to have said.

---

No Daniel.

First of all, I didn't say anything about Portugal.

You said: If you want to see people going sideways for fun go to your local rally where unskilled idiots with too much money throw their cars sideways and hope that they get around the corner.

You can twist others words to defend what you believe to be your point but that doesn't change matters.

You made a broad and condescending, if not insulting, comment. Additionally, you didn't do it in spoken word, where one's intent can be communicated in a broader sense; you did it in the written word, where your audience can only take you for exactly what you have written. If you cannot understand the difference in that then I have no further words for you.

Obviously, as you have elaborated as this discussion has dragged on, you meant more than your initial comment would reflect. Where is the harm in simply saying "I should have been more direct or specific". Or simply stating, "you know, I didn't make my point clearly". Like it or not, what you communicate, is not a product of your intent or attempt, but what your audience understands and perceives. No matter how diligently you defend "what" you said, it only matters what your audience "heard".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L5->R5/CR

No Daniel.

First of all, I didn't say anything about Portugal.

You said: If you want to see people going sideways for fun go to your local rally where unskilled idiots with too much money throw their cars sideways and hope that they get around the corner.

You can twist others words to defend what you believe to be your point but that doesn't change matters.

You made a broad and condescending, if not insulting, comment. Additionally, you didn't do it in spoken word, where one's intent can be communicated in a broader sense; you did it in the written word, where your audience can only take you for exactly what you have written. If you cannot understand the difference in that then I have no further words for you.

Obviously, as you have elaborated as this discussion has dragged on, you meant more than your initial comment would reflect. Where is the harm in simply saying "I should have been more direct or specific". Or simply stating, "you know, I didn't make my point clearly". Like it or not, what you communicate, is not a product of your intent or attempt, but what your audience understands and perceives. No matter how diligently you defend "what" you said, it only matters what your audience "heard".

---

Seriously. You people don't quite get it.

You know what. If you walked down the road here you're probably hear birds tweeting. Does that mean that's the only sound you'll hear? NO of course it bloody well doesn't. I don't need to explicitly freaking state that in addition to the people that just want to go sideways at rallies there are 10 that are very skilled, 2 that have wooden legs, 1 that has a hook for a hand. It goes without saying that at all events there are some very skilled people and some not so skilled people. IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING. GET IT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? As in I don't need to explicitly state that in addition to the people who are unskilled there are a lot of drivers who are very skilled and could probably go a lot further given sponsorship/money.

For the record and for the last frigging time.......

There are things called club rallies. Where you simply need a car which is prepared to the relevant standards set out in the series regulations or by the MSA or FIA or whoever is in charge of that sort of thing in the country. Then you need yourself and your co-driver who both need relevant licences to rally and also you need clothing and so on. What this means is that pretty much anyone can rally at a club level. You could be Sebastien Loeb or Robert Mugabe and the organisers probably wouldn't care. You pays your entry fee and you does your rallying. Your goal could be to go as fast as possible, not die or to go as sideways as possible. Many if not all world champions have competed at a club level so OBVIOUSLY (in fact one could say it GOES WITHOUT SAYING :rolleyes: ) there are some VERY skilled people who compete at this level. Of course there are some less skilled people also.

Is that explicit enough for you? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ozrevhead

Everyone's entitled to opinion - whether you agree with it is up to you. No one should have to apologise if they dont feel they have to.

Personally I dont agree with what Daniel is saying but I will sure as hell defend his right to say it

---

Fair enough and I respect your right to not agree with me and the fact that you don't seem to feel somehow obliged to have a pitched battle over what you think I said :up:

You're the only person here who has any common sense and I include myself in that statement just so everyone is clear on that ;)

I think its a bit unfair to call all the local event drivers talentless idiots...i mean you have to start from somewhere...even Loeb was a local driver a few years back...

On the other hand there are many who fall into the category of the sick dog (far more elegant term don;t you think?) and run local village events....the problem, the uglyness and the beuty of rallying is that everyone with money can do it....throw a few money out of the window and you can brag you are a rally competitor, that you love the sport and this and that....and you also demand respect just for throwing some money away.....well i might dissapoint you but you are no rally competitor....you are a sick dog without an owner....if you want respect you earn it by doing far better things than spent euros. Don;t get me wrong you don;t have to be a champion to be considered a rally driver but at least you have to show you can be competitive in the equipment you are in.

Now on the boring Loeb thing.... !!!!! GO WATCH DRIFT RACING !!!!!! leave rallying alone of your presence...... I do also enjoy when a driver goes sideways because the situation demands it...that shows skill...drifting just for the drift is not what rallying is all about.

both the above sentences do not refer to anyone personally...they are just general commants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.T

...they are just general commants.

---

Jamaican accent rules don;t you think ???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.T

Jamaican accent rules don;t you think ???

---

You know ... it exists also an "edit" button :p

The sad thing of all this is that we have finally understood every driver until 2002 or so was a totally unskilled sideways one :\
50+ years of rally trashed ... I must go see all Fast and Furious films now, damn. Will I survive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Helstar

You know ... it exists also an "edit" button :p

The sad thing of all this is that we have finally understood every driver until 2002 or so was a totally unskilled sideways one :\
50+ years of rally trashed ... I must go see all Fast and Furious films now, damn. Will I survive.

---

every driver was sideways before 2002 ?????? you learn something new every day......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.T

Now on the boring Loeb thing.... !!!!! GO WATCH DRIFT RACING !!!!!! leave rallying alone of your presence...... I do also enjoy when a driver goes sideways because the situation demands it...that shows skill...drifting just for the drift is not what rallying is all about

---

Exactly my view also :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Helstar

You know ... it exists also an "edit" button :p

The sad thing of all this is that we have finally understood every driver until 2002 or so was a totally unskilled sideways one :\
50+ years of rally trashed ... I must go see all Fast and Furious films now, damn.

---

Oh come on Helstar :) It's simply because of the fact that the cars don't reward sideways driving. I agree very much with you that it would be nice to see more sideways driving in the WRC but until the cars change we're not going to see that and I will simply appreciate the skill that goes into Loeb driving faster than everyone else.

If I had my choice I'd go back in time to the 80's and experience Group A a bit more and have more memories. I only ever got to see the group A glory days on one rally and I feel like I lost out big time. I just remember the cars being so sideways and so fast. I'd take that over todays rallying in a flash

Not sure where this whole one eyed fan thing comes from. I saw Loeb back in 2002 on Rally Oz and thought that he would be a great driver in the future even though he'd not done much in a WRCar up until then and the Xsara was very new to gravel. I backed a winner, I was lucky. I also thought Duval would be a great driver in the future and now look where he is :mark: Sometimes you back a winner and sometimes you back a loser.

If you want to see sideways action, go to a drifting event!
If you want to see the fastest driver, go to a rally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N

If you want to see sideways action, go to a drifting event!
If you want to see the fastest driver, go to a rally.

---

And don't forget to have some tyres experts with you so they can cut them if needed http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...ons/icon14.gif

Ps. Your last post is good Daniel, but I was obviously ironic. I know the problem is mainly the WRC cars. Look at what Gigi has became. Almost 100% less sideway (he must do the "job" now...).