I will probably be banned for this, but...shooting thread!

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Originally Posted by Starter

So I guess that means that the US should have minded it's own business in 1943. The war with Japan was justified because of their attack on US territory but the US should have stayed out of Europe as there was no direct threat? I guess the US should also have withdrawn from all of Europe at the end of WWII and left the European countries to deal with the USSR - another European country?

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For a start, the US entered the European theatre in 1942, not 1943. If you are going to seek to lecture others, get your facts right. Secondly, where on earth did I mention the Second World War? Re-read what I wrote again and you'll see no reference to it (equally, you won't find me genuflecting towards America's late intervention, as valuable as it unquestionably was, and expressing undying gratitude because I consider it unnecessary so to do). For what it's worth, I consider the American presence in Europe and the assistance it rendered post-war to, generally, have been an example of foreign policy carried out for the right reasons, unlike certain recent adventures. Certainly, it was a significant contributor to peace during the Cold War. Unfortunately, though, you have fallen into the trap encountered by quite a lot of right-leaning Americans, namely to believe that criticism of one aspect of American policy must equate to a detestation of every aspect. This is simply not true, although it is highly predictable.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Chuck, nowhere in my post was I referring to you, because while I may have disagreements with you on this and other issues, I don't lump you in with those Americans one encountered who are depressingly insular, so I'd like an apology for your diatribe — one better suited to an inarticulate rant against you rather than what I deliberately intended to be a measured post.

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What? You didn't refer to me? Are you serious?

Listen I do normally respect you and your opinions. You are fairly rational, even though I disagree with you most of the time on politically ideology.

But this is too far. For you to claim that you did not refer to me when you directly quoted me, and then to demand an apology. No. That I will not do.

I said what I said, and I ment it. It does not matter if you were refering to me or someone else. This is an internet forum. You know next to nothing about anyone here. So to claim that you have some superior right to an opinion because you are more "worldly" than somone else, is ridiculous on it's face.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

What? You didn't refer to me? Are you serious?

Listen I do normally respect you and your opinions. You are fairly rational, even though I disagree with you most of the time on politically ideology.

But this is too far. For you to claim that you did not refer to me when you directly quoted me, and then to demand an apology. No. That I will not do.

I said what I said, and I ment it. It does not matter if you were refering to me or someone else. This is an internet forum. You know next to nothing about anyone here. So to claim that you have some superior right to an opinion because you are more "worldly" than somone else, is ridiculous on it's face.

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Chuck, what will it take to get through to you — I wasn't referring to you in this instance, but other people! For goodness' sake. Do you think I'm lying when I say that? I'm not, I'll have you know. How on earth you can possibly conclude that my comments were aimed at you I honestly have no idea, because they were not.

And as for your assertion that 'It does not matter if you were refering to me or someone else' — well, clearly it does, hence your irritation, but what do you mean by that anyway? Are you seeking to deny that there is an insular streak to be found in some of your countrymen, of a type that one rarely encounters in, for example, Europe? I didn't consider it that controversial an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Starter

...So maybe we should just agree to disagree and let this thread wither away.

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Agreed. Based on previous similar efforts, sadly the outcome of this thread is highly predictable :mark: .

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Chuck, what will it take to get through to you — I wasn't referring to you in this instance, but other people! For goodness' sake. Do you think I'm lying when I say that? I'm not, I'll have you know. How on earth you can possibly conclude that my comments were aimed at you I honestly have no idea, because they were not.

And as for your assertion that 'It does not matter if you were refering to me or someone else' — well, clearly it does, hence your irritation, but what do you mean by that anyway? Are you seeking to deny that there is an insular streak to be found in some of your countrymen, of a type that one rarely encounters in, for example, Europe? I didn't consider it that controversial an opinion.

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My God I do live in Bizzaro world. In my universe, when you directly quote someone you are clearly refering to them. If you wanted to speak about my arguments but not address me, then perhaps you should have said something like "Other Americans ...", "other Conservatives ..." etc. But when you directly quote me, without qualification, then what am I supposed to infer from that other than you are referencing me?

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Originally Posted by Starter

We have, In multiple threads here. Over and over. But some keep whipping a dead horse and reopening the same tired discussion again.

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At the risk of more threats of ban for daring to speak to an imoderate 'moderator'.....it seems from my perspective that threads are started expressing horror and dismay at pointless, seemingly insane gun related murders which are then derailed by a tiny coterie of Americans ranting about "Nobody's gonna take my guns! Cause I'm gonna shoot it out with a) baddies and b) the evil Gubbymint".

Normal people in normal civilised countries ARE dismayed and horrified when innocent people are slaghtered by crazies.
Evidently you and Chuck like it.

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Canada (and I love the country and visit often) is more aligned with the European culture. Though it does sort of have a foot in both camps.

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Considering that maybe 85% of the population of Canada lives withing 100km of the US border, and that despite a absurd and wasteful border charade is carried out, the line on the map does not stop the relentless maddness poured forth from US AM Radio. Also there are cynical greedy authoritarians in Canada as plagues everywhere, and they know they can make a fortune winding up the weaker minded and more fearful in Canada so there is a mimicking of the diarrhea from the US AM radio....so yes, there's a foot in both but I would suggest that one isn't in a camp, but rather something smellier, and stickier.

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The US culture, on the other hand, has always been based on the individual. Probably because of much of our history as a "frontier" and rebel country. We esteem individual rights over collective society. We don't like other people telling us what to do. (Even if they're sometimes right. :p )

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What America "was always" is one thing. One must wonder why the Legislatures of Virginia and Massechusetts, the 2 major hotbeds of our Revolution were thinking when they named their former Colonies "The Commonwealth of Virginia" and the "Commonwealth of Massivetwoshïts"?
Further one has to wonder what the hell they were talking about in the Preamble of our Constitution when they were all blabberingabout "insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity," instead of "THE INDIVIDUAL!!!! which so many claim the country "has always been"?

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So maybe we should just agree to disagree and let this thread wither away.

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Or you could just threaten bannation to everybody who points out anything that disagrees with you and the other Americans hijacking threads or those ridiculing the vision of you guys blazing away at a M-1 Abrams with you pistols and rifles "defending yourself against gubbymint tyranny".

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

For a start, the US entered the European theatre in 1942, not 1943.

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We were already involved by 1940 with the destroyer/base exchange and Lend-Lease in 1941. And that's not counting convoy work.

And it was Germany and Italy that declared war on the US, though oddly because of the way the Japan treaty was written it wasn't required since Japan struck first.

I've heard someone say Japanese internment within the US wouldn't have happened they all were armed. True story.

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Originally Posted by Starter

You didn't have to mention WWII, you were pulling up instances where you believe the US to be in error and I was citing instances where our foreign adventures were warmly welcomed.

I don't have time to do a complete forum search of all your posts, so perhaps you could remind me of the last time you applauded anything done by the US? I certainly can't remember it. So, could it be that the body of your posts would lead one to believe that you perhaps are not inclined to think much of this country?

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And it's such a shame you began with Korea where the US was only welcomed by the most extreme elements in Korea, specifically the Officer Corp who had been on the pay of Japan---a brutal totalitarian regime..And who were installed by the US Army, and who replicated the paranoid, hyper Nationalistic, brutal Government like they knew best.
And it took a bloody war and a couple of decades of violent and murderous repression in the South by the South Korean "dynasty" before there was anything like a civilised, democratic society in the South..

So Fail on that example.

Anyplace else where US military forces were welcomed?

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Normal people in normal civilised countries ARE dismayed and horrified when innocent people are slaghtered by crazies.
Evidently you and Chuck like it.

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When have I ever said that I like this sort of thing happening? I hate it, and wish that it would never happen. But in a free society, unfortunatly crap happens. I know that's an old cliche, but it is true. The only way to ensure that nothing bad will ever happen is to take all freedom away. Is that a good answer to you, take all freedom away, so that no one can ever hurt themselves or others?

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Also there are cynical greedy authoritarians in Canada as plagues everywhere,

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Which position is more "authoritarian", allowing people to own guns as they have for well over 200 years, or passing new laws that will outlaw tomorrow what is legal today?

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

What America "was always" is one thing. One must wonder why the Legislatures of Virginia and Massechusetts, the 2 major hotbeds of our Revolution were thinking when they named their former Colonies "The Commonwealth of Virginia" and the "Commonwealth of Massivetwoshïts"?
Further one has to wonder what the hell they were talking about in the Preamble of our Constitution when they were all blabberingabout "insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity," instead of "THE INDIVIDUAL!!!! which so many claim the country "has always been"?

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It is clear from this statement that the only thing you know of the US Constitution is the preamble. You have clearly never read the rest of the document, the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalist Papers, the writings of the Founders, and the like. If you had read up on some of those things you would see that the over-riding concern of EVERYONE involved was how to maximize personal liberty while maintaining some form of National unity.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Or you could just threaten bannation to everybody who points out anything that disagrees with you and the other Americans hijacking threads or those ridiculing the vision of you guys blazing away at a M-1 Abrams with you pistols and rifles "defending yourself against gubbymint tyranny".

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So your belief is that there is no way for the US government to become tyranical? That isn't what I heard from many on the left/progressive/liberal side of things when the debate turns to the Patriot Act. Interesting how that works.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

My God I do live in Bizzaro world. In my universe, when you directly quote someone you are clearly refering to them. If you wanted to speak about my arguments but not address me, then perhaps you should have said something like "Other Americans ...", "other Conservatives ..." etc. But when you directly quote me, without qualification, then what am I supposed to infer from that other than you are referencing me?

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I had hoped you'd realised enough about me to know that I don't automatically lump you in with certain other individuals.