The future of the Euro and EU.

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6th December 2011, 04:09
anthonyvop

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

What if it goes down again after this week?

Do you have any concrete evidence that it will?
Not saying that it won't but as of right now I see no indication that it will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

I wonder how man times can the 3 US based rating agencies menace all EU countries with downgrading before everyone realizes that they are fake?

Why are they fake?
Are they fake because their research arrives at a conclusion that go against what you want?
Are they fake because they are mostly US based and it kills you that it is US companies that have produced a product that dominates the market?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

And even if it's true, who will be able to take further credit if no one can afford it anymore?

Ask Greece

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

IMO those who are playing the game right now better play it smart or stop before the whole world goes down due to this stupid market hysteria!

It ain't no game. It is serious business. No place for "Black Helicopter" economics without any grasp of geopolitical markets.

The idea that with all the thousands of people involved in Government Agencies, Financial Houses and private investors around the world that this is some kind of "Grand, Evil, Capitalist Conspiracy to keep the man down is preposterous.
6th December 2011, 15:30
race aficionado

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

What if it goes down again after this week?
. . . . . . .

IMO those who are playing the game right now better play it smart or stop before the whole world goes down due to this stupid market hysteria!

It is a gambling casino and I hate the fact that the "god", the "Dow" - going up or down - is the reflection of "how things are" - and if we base the market as a reflection of how things are with this up and down crazy Yo Yo effect - we are indeed in deep crap.
6th December 2011, 18:59
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Do you have any concrete evidence that it will?
Not saying that it won't but as of right now I see no indication that it will.

Italy's interest rates went down also, who would have thought it? Not you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Why are they fake?

Because the macro economic indicators of France and Germany do not point to what the 3 stooges said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Are they fake because their research arrives at a conclusion that go against what you want?

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Are they fake because they are mostly US based and it kills you that it is US companies that have produced a product that dominates the market?

Are you talking about weapons and war? Or did I miss something else where the US is dominant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Ask Greece

Ask what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

It ain't no game. It is serious business. No place for "Black Helicopter" economics without any grasp of geopolitical markets.

Sure, it's not about economics it's about how to make economic slaves.
Funny is how the Euro is just not going down no matter what some people expect, I guess the real economics behind the smoke screens are not so easy to fool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The idea that with all the thousands of people involved in Government Agencies, Financial Houses and private investors around the world that this is some kind of "Grand, Evil, Capitalist Conspiracy to keep the man down is preposterous.

What about the other billions, who's worthier the thousands you give unlimited credibility or the billions whom are being played with by these few thousands?
6th December 2011, 20:22
ioan

BTW, today Germany reached the 1000 billion Euro exports / year level, and are expected to reach 1075 billions by the end of this year.
The only country that exports more is China, who by the way is approx 14 larger as population.

This must be the reason why the US rating agencies think Germany should lose it's AAA rating, they are not making enough money to pay their debts! :rotflmao:
6th December 2011, 21:28
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

It's not their debts, it's other countries debts which they are putting themselves on the hook for which are the problem.

Why would Germany have problem financing their own debts if they have the money to do it?

I can understand that Greece couldn't do it on its own, that Portugal and Ireland are looking very bad too, that Italy and Spain had to take huge cuts to have a chance to survive.

What exactly is the problem with France and especially Germany if they are stable? It's not like Germany or even France are likely to default.

Looks like a political game that the US rating agencies are trying to mask under some strange economical reasons. They started claiming that France is having difficulties, which was shut down shortly after that, so they came back with a generalized Euro rating downgrade. Next they will also start claiming the same for the remaining EU countries who are not using the Euro, which will be even funnier.

The self-fulfilling prophecy doesn't seem to work though.
6th December 2011, 22:49
donKey jote

These aren't the same rating agencies who still gave the likes of Enron, Lehman and co full marks just before they went down, are they?
I bet they don't "charge" companies for favourable ratings or hold vested interests in any of them.
No, they are freedom in action, and sod the consequences. :dozey:

Still, it's not all their fault, it's the people who listen to them...
6th December 2011, 23:01
anthonyvop

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Italy's interest rates went down also, who would have thought it? Not you.

A one day drop does not a trend make

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Because the macro economic indicators of France and Germany do not point to what the 3 stooges said.

And what indicators are those? The ioan list of stuff I want to happen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

See above.

Do I have to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Are you talking about weapons and war? Or did I miss something else where the US is dominant?

Come on..Concentrate. Stay on topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Ask what?

Greece. That small southeast European Country who's economy is in the crapper because they pay almost 1/2 of their people not to work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Sure, it's not about economics it's about how to make economic slaves.
Funny is how the Euro is just not going down no matter what some people expect, I guess the real economics behind the smoke screens are not so easy to fool.

Who are economic Slaves? Seriously...What the hell is that suppose to be? Are you a "economic slave?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

What about the other billions, who's worthier the thousands you give unlimited credibility or the billions whom are being played with by these few thousands?

What about them? Perhaps if they actually were paying attention to what was going on they wouldn't have been so quick to embrace their Socialist agendas. Until them.....It is totally their fault if they get hurt.
6th December 2011, 23:13
anthonyvop

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

BTW, today Germany reached the 1000 billion Euro exports / year level, and are expected to reach 1075 billions by the end of this year.
The only country that exports more is China, who by the way is approx 14 larger as population.

The US will export close to 1.4 Trillion in 2011 so how Germany is #2 is pretty incomprehensible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

This must be the reason why the US rating agencies think Germany should lose it's AAA rating, they are not making enough money to pay their debts! :rotflmao:

I will explain it simply enough so you can understand.

Germany uses this for money.

http://www.oilempire.us/oil-jpg/Euro_coins.jpg

So do:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Hi62ct3eur...-peiraias2.jpg

and others

Because they are

http://vaporizersale.com/wp-content/...Free-Stuff.png

Without having to do

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-C3APPc23ZO...n_progress.jpg
7th December 2011, 08:26
ArrowsFA1

Quote:

Originally Posted by race aficionado

It is a gambling casino and I hate the fact that the "god", the "Dow" - going up or down - is the reflection of "how things are" - and if we base the market as a reflection of how things are with this up and down crazy Yo Yo effect - we are indeed in deep crap.

Whenever I hear politicians utter the phrase "to calm market fears" I do question who is running the world :crazy: The answer is the markets...whoever they are.
7th December 2011, 12:19
Malbec

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Why would Germany have problem financing their own debts if they have the money to do it?

I can understand that Greece couldn't do it on its own, that Portugal and Ireland are looking very bad too, that Italy and Spain had to take huge cuts to have a chance to survive.

What exactly is the problem with France and especially Germany if they are stable? It's not like Germany or even France are likely to default.

ioan, while I agree with the broad thrust of what you are saying, you might want to think about who is underwriting the bailouts for Greece etc and who stands to lose out if countries start to default.

The problem is that France and Germany aren't just responsible for paying their own debts, they are providing the collateral as it were for those $100 billion to $ trillion bailouts. They're doing this both directly and by making it more attractive for private banks to lend money by subsidising them.

This is why the Greek and Italian bailouts are eroding confidence in France and Germany. Effectively North Europe is agreeing to be liable for South Europe's debt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Looks like a political game that the US rating agencies are trying to mask under some strange economical reasons. They started claiming that France is having difficulties, which was shut down shortly after that, so they came back with a generalized Euro rating downgrade.

No, there is no political game. Giving credit ratings is what credit ratings agencies do, they're just doing they're job and their arguments are justified.

Having said that, we should be taking their words with a pinch of salt. After all these are the same companies that failed to spot that subprime home loans were being mixed in with solid ones and gave those packages a AAA rating, the root cause for the entire credit crunch.

I blame Germany for the current loss of confidence in the Euro, their inaction and failure to even say anything that reassures the markets is shocking.

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