petty bickering about a racing incident that happened 10 years ago thread

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Since you claim that

"If it was so easy as chucking a bit of new code in and everything being hunky dory, why do you think developers spend so much time debugging and testing"

could you please enlighten this poor, uneducated former F1 design team member why this happened....

"After the practice session FIA's technical delegate Charlie Whiting asked Ferrari not to use an "engine modulation system". The cars with this system were for the first time taken to the GP and it wasn't some secret. As it was suspected the system was some sort of banned traction control, because it was limiting the engine power on low gears, allowing to avoid the spinning.

Ferrari team decided, after a talk with Whiting, to remove that system"

So Ferrari removed the system, yet somehow their cars still ran.

But, according to your knowledge, this would have been virtually impossible without some major testing, research & programming.

Explanation?

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Stop grabbing at straws mate. You're getting as bad as ioan.

You do not completely reprogram a cars ECU between practice and a race.

You can turn functions on and off and this is what they would have done.

Did they reprogram the ECU to remove any trace of the TC routines. No.

Did Bennetton. Probably not ;)

Was there any logical reason that they would not remove the functionality when altering the Source Code during development if they never wanted to use it? No ;)

That raises a question doesn't it ;)

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

You can turn functions on and off and this is what they would have done.

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Which is what I have been saying for the past 5-odd pages of this thread.

So thank you for confirming that you were the one grabbing at straws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Was there any logical reason that they would not remove the functionality when altering the Source Code during development if they never wanted to use it? No ;)

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And, who, pray tell, ever said that Benetton did not want to use it?

Nobody at Benetton.

Traction Control was used in testing to record a baseline of performance. Benetton were not alone in doing that.

Please provide a link for proof of your statement that "they never wanted to use it"

Otherwise, it's just a trashy statement with no evidence to back it up and is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to throw mud.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Stop grabbing at straws mate. You're getting as bad as ioan.

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Look who's talking! :rolleyes:

Tam is only showing you the FACTS that prove that you are dead wrong. Still your go on with your petty personal attacks.

I can only pity you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Please provide a link for proof of your statement that "they never wanted to use it"

Otherwise, it's just a trashy statement with no evidence to back it up and is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to throw mud.

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He almost never provides proof for his claims outrageous claims, and that's normal as there is no such proof. Still he will not stop yelling and asking for proof even after you give him a few well documented links. It's really tiresome to try to have a "discussion" with some people around here.

PS: Tam, you did a wonderful job explaining what happened back in 1993 and 1994! :up:

Tamb – thanks for all those links you’ve dug up, its much appreciated :) .

Though I found Flav’s quote of The problem
is that the FIA introduced this rule which cannot be policed,
and it is up to the FIA to deal with these matters, not the
teams. How can you prove it one way or the other ?" highly interesting, do you not think that gives us an insight into the mindframe of Benetton, or at least top management anyway.

That and on top of their disregard for the black flag etc.

Also, with regards to traction control being banned, whats an exact date? I found one saying June, you insisted it was July, and now say October. Why did you previously say it was July?

You also say “But, hey, I only worked for the team that won that years WDC, so maybe a team that hadn't won a Grand Prix since September 1990 knew a lot more than us do you think?” – maybe that’s why your slightly biased in your view on this?

I have two questions:
1) Was there a TC/LC system on the Benetton?
2) Was there was a means of activating it?

From what I've read here and elsewhere the answers to both of those questions is yes. If that's the case then given the ultra compititive world that is F1 where every advantage is sought, it is understandable that there is a question mark over the legality of the car.

Having said that, I've read comments (no link I'm afraid) from Pat Symonds that the system was not used in race conditions, which is much the same as tamburello has said. The one thing that counts against them is they both worked for Benetton so would hardly want it confirmed should the team have been running an illegal car. Certain people here disbelieve every utterance of a certain other team on a similar basis!

Still, it's a long time ago and the championships are in the history books. Nothing said now changes that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Which is what I have been saying for the past 5-odd pages of this thread.

So thank you for confirming that you were the one grabbing at straws.

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If thats what you been arguing for past 5 pages I suggest you read posts better. Neither me or Knock On have said the system couldn't be turned on or off.

We all agree it can be turned on and off.

Though Benetton didn't realise this could be turned on and off until the FIA found it could be.....

.....Benetton didn't even realise they had LC until the FIA found it for them!! And then they remembered they did, but it was switched off and couldn't be turned on....until FIA found out it could be.

Thats my point, it was lies after lies.

At end of day, we can't prove they used it in the race, so would be wrong to punish them for it.

But all the facts imply they used it, everything was in place for them to use it, the paddock complained that they thought Benetton were using it.

And Flavs quote above opening stating "The problem
is that the FIA introduced this rule which cannot be policed,
and it is up to the FIA to deal with these matters, not the
teams. How can you prove it one way or the other ?"".

To me, it says they used it and raced an illegal car.

But to be fairr Tamb, you've done your research, and finally found a practical explanation, albeit very stretched at times.

I'll put following sentence in bold just for you, incase you ask me to prove it when I've said 4 times I cannot.

I cannot prove Benetton used LC and TC in the races therefore it would be unfair to punish them for that.

However, as I've said, all the evidence and circumstances imply they did. Which is unfortunate, as for me, an illegal car won the championship by forcing an accident at last race.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ioan

He almost never provides proof for his claims outrageous claims, and that's normal as there is no such proof. Still he will not stop yelling and asking for proof even after you give him a few well documented links. It's really tiresome to try to have a "discussion" with some people around here.

PS: Tam, you did a wonderful job explaining what happened back in 1993 and 1994! :up:

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Welcome back Ioan aint seen you in a while :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Which is what I have been saying for the past 5-odd pages of this thread.

So thank you for confirming that you were the one grabbing at straws.

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If you selectivly quote a post then I can assume you accept that post in in entirety.

There was no logical reason to have LC or TC on a car unless you plan to use it.

It's bull to say they need to baseline. Why? They should know what is happening when the wheels are losing grip unless they are using electronics to minimise the effect.

Basically, if it looks like Chicken, smells like chicken and tastes like chicken, the chances are it's chicken.

Still, it's really nice to hear from someone on the team what was actually going on in the SW department. Fousto will be pleased that all his claims over the years have been bourne out.

Thanks Tamb :)