Was Lewis passing Heikki legal?

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Originally Posted by ioan

You're right, double standards are the standard around here, since ever.

If it's Ferrari it's bad, if it's McLaren it's the best thing to be done.
If it's Max than he should be thrown out, if it's Bernie then it business like always.

And so on and so forth.

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Erm.....I don't remember a big deal being made out of Massa letting Kimi past last year at Brazil, effectively deciding the title.

McLaren fans and majority of F1 fans made a big deal of when Ferrari had a strict No.1 policy with MS. Because it went against the very basic principles of sport.

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Originally Posted by ioan

You're right, double standards are the standard around here, since ever.

If it's Ferrari it's bad, if it's McLaren it's the best thing to be done.
If it's Max than he should be thrown out, if it's Bernie then it business like always.

And so on and so forth.

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Erm.....I don't remember a big deal being made out of Massa letting Kimi past last year at Brazil, effectively deciding the title.

McLaren fans and majority of F1 fans made a big deal of when Ferrari had a strict No.1 policy with MS. Because it went against the very basic principles of sport.

But if you look at since they've adopted an =1 policy, when team orders have been imposed, no one makes a fuss. Because they're done in a sporting and reasonable manner.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Teams never raise questions about team orders because they are not hypocrites, as they all use them. Something we can't say about lots of members of this forum, whom would have yelled about it day and night if it was Ferrari (and there is proof to that), but they say it was normal, because it was McLaren!

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Nothing to do with hypocrisy, IMO, just an excuse to bash McLaren/Ferrari

Although team orders are accepted and a necessary evil, there comes a point where the implementation can cause disrepute - which is what happened in Austria 2002, no where near the halfway stage of the season. If they wanted Schumi to win then do it at the middle of the race, not at the last moment.

There comes a point during a season where its accepted for team orders just as in 1999, let alone 1979!

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Originally Posted by wedge

Nothing to do with hypocrisy, IMO, just an excuse to bash McLaren/Ferrari

Although team orders are accepted and a necessary evil, there comes a point where the implementation can cause disrepute - which is what happened in Austria 2002, no where near the halfway stage of the season. If they wanted Schumi to win then do it at the middle of the race, not at the last moment.

There comes a point during a season where its accepted for team orders just as in 1999, let alone 1979!

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I understand that viewpoint, but then it can also be argued that by slowing the Number 2 down on the last corner, rather than using a shambolic running-wide scenario or straight-forwardly dishonest 'brake problem' ,shows to the world that actually he was faster and that the team-order wasn't being hidden.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I understand that viewpoint, but then it can also be argued that by slowing the Number 2 down on the last corner, rather than using a shambolic running-wide scenario or straight-forwardly dishonest 'brake problem' ,shows to the world that actually he was faster and that the team-order wasn't being hidden.

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I don't think it's worth going back over "that" incident as most people see it as very different.

I don't mind if a team release a faster driver from behind his slower team mate. If you have 2 team mates battleing, then it slows both down and makes them vulnerable from behind.

Similarly, if a driver is out of the WDC hunt and his team mate is in the hunt, I don't see it as unreasonable if the driver doesn't defend his position "too" rigorously.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

I think we may have to agree to disagree then.

The link provided gave no quote of what Heikki said, just their interpretations of his reaction. considering its regarding a Finnish driver in the Finnish press, I wouldn't really see it as an objective opinion. Its like asking the ITV-F1 crew about Hamilton - its going to be very biased!

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:laugh:

That's a good one. The english press won't print it cause they don't know about it or don't understand it, so we call it a biased Finnish article!

I think we should only take for objective what the Spanish press says about Lewis after all the british are clearly biased and not worth reading. :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I understand that viewpoint, but then it can also be argued that by slowing the Number 2 down on the last corner, rather than using a shambolic running-wide scenario or straight-forwardly dishonest 'brake problem' ,shows to the world that actually he was faster and that the team-order wasn't being hidden.

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Yep, and they also owned up to it!
Something Ron "integrity smug face" Dennis wouldn't do, no matter the price to pay for it.
And the McLaren fans are clearly the same, no matter what you put in front of their eyes they will quickly close them and do as nothing ever happened. Hypocrites!

PS: Just to remind everyone I'm not against team order, just against double standards and hypocrisy! :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep, and they also owned up to it!
Something Ron "integrity smug face" Dennis wouldn't do, no matter the price to pay for it.
And the McLaren fans are clearly the same, no matter what you put in front of their eyes they will quickly close them and do as nothing ever happened. Hypocrites!

PS: Just to remind everyone I'm not against team order, just against double standards and hypocrisy! :)

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So ioan, when McLaren asked if a certain movable device was illegal and the FIA claimed it was, then that's one thing.

However, the fact that the device was actually fitted on a Ferrari which the FIA had passed lead you to claim they had done nothing wrong.

Double standards and Hypocrisy no?

In this example, the FIA monitored McLarens radio and found nothing wrong but you seem to be alluding that they have broken some rule or another with no proof apart from your blind hatred of Ron Denis?

Double standards and Hypocrisy no?

Actually, you should be congratulated because not only have you demonstrated double standards and hypocrisy by by proclaiming your stance against such traits, have superbly demonstrated the meaning or irony :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

So ioan, when McLaren asked if a certain movable device was illegal and the FIA claimed it was, then that's one thing.

However, the fact that the device was actually fitted on a Ferrari which the FIA had passed lead you to claim they had done nothing wrong.

Double standards and Hypocrisy no?

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So we shift from team orders to movable devices?! So be it, however I remember from where we discussed the movable devices in depth that 99% of the forum members, you included, can't make the difference between movable and flexible!

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

In this example, the FIA monitored McLarens radio and found nothing wrong but you seem to be alluding that they have broken some rule or another with no proof apart from your blind hatred of Ron Denis?

Double standards and Hypocrisy no?

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bla bla bla, heiki said th eteam prevented him from racing Lewis, that's team orders. However in my previous post, the one you are quoting, I said I'm not against team orders. So I fail to see where is the hypocrisy you are talking about, or were you talking about your behavior?!

Hatred towards Ron? No, I actually pity him.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Actually, you should be congratulated because not only have you demonstrated double standards and hypocrisy by by proclaiming your stance against such traits, have superbly demonstrated the meaning or irony :laugh:

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I'm yet to see where I'm being hypocritical, as long as I said I'm not against team orders, but against your hypocrisy!

Maybe you don't understand what the word HYPOCRISY means, in this case please do try to learn about it before accusing me, you hypocrite (just take a look at your comment re Austria 2002 and compare it to what you said in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about).

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Originally Posted by ioan

So we shift from team orders to movable devices?! So be it, however I remember from where we discussed the movable devices in depth that 99% of the forum members, you included, can't make the difference between movable and flexible!

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I take it you can back that up, as per your signature.

Oh dear, you cant. Hypocrite :laugh:

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bla bla bla, heiki said th eteam prevented him from racing Lewis, that's team orders. However in my previous post, the one you are quoting, I said I'm not against team orders. So I fail to see where is the hypocrisy you are talking about, or were you talking about your behavior?!

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I am yet to see a transcript where Heikki says "McLaren prevented me from racing Lewis".

If you can provide one, then fine but I don't know how Heikki could race Lewis when he was going slower? The best he could do was stop him from passing and as faster drivers like Jnr and your revered Massa couldn't what hope had Heikki of doing better?

If I remember correctly, the quote you are claiming supports your case is where Heikki allegedly says that the team told him that Lewis was faster. Even by the unsubstantiated quote you refer to, there is nothing about team orders.

Yet, you say this is team orders with no proof :laugh:

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Hatred towards Ron? No, I actually pity him.

I'm yet to see where I'm being hypocritical, as long as I said I'm not against team orders, but against your hypocrisy!

Maybe you don't understand what the word HYPOCRISY means, in this case please do try to learn about it before accusing me, you hypocrite (just take a look at your comment re Austria 2002 and compare it to what you said in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about).

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I'm afraid that I rarely understand what you're talking about.

I didn't agree with 2002 and nor did most people including your friend Max because a faster driver slowed to let a slower driver through.

In Germany, a slower driver got out of the way of his faster team mate who then went on to overtake 2 rivals and win the race.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, even for yourself ioan.